Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on November 01, 2013, 10:20:03 PM
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welcome to the forum, dude! i specialize in analog-to-digital conversion, so if you ever want some of your timeless 1st pressings converted, i'm your guy!
No bj, I'm the guy. My drops are second to none (but I work very slowly).
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thrifty, what are drops? do they smell?
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thrifty, what are drops? do they smell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_drop_%28audio%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_drop_%28audio%29)
How can you "specialize" in something that you don't even know the correct term for?
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I see a "drop" competition coming down the road. I pick the vinyl.
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thrifty, what are drops? do they smell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_drop_%28audio%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_drop_%28audio%29)
How can you "specialize" in something that you don't even know the correct term for?
I'm not really a slang term guy, but I'd be willing to bet money that I can produce a higher quality digital replication than you ;)
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You're on. Tom picks the vinyl.
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We will need judges (at least three), Tom picks the vinyl and we submit 24/96 FLAC or WAV files. Gear and technique at the discretion of the dropper.
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Tom, pick one that is less than perfect. Any fool with some cash can buy a bunch of gear and hit record, transparently removing problems is what really demonstrates skills.
Also, it would be great if it is something not available in the digital realm, as those are the types of recordings I see the most value in putting this kind of time and effort into. That is just my preference, not really important in terms of a contest.
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What kind of wager are we making? I don't work for free.
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What do you want to lose to me?
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I mean, I don't want to make you cry or put you in the poor house or anything.
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Thrifty, I seriously will bet you any money. Not only do I have the hardware, but I have the software, and the ears, and the ability to use all of them. I know it takes more than a record button to do conversions, which is why I do this kind of work professionally for money :)
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My money is on BJ. After all he spent about $250,000 to get a bachelor's degree in audio/recording engineering and a Master's degree in classical guitar performance. He's well trained in the equipment and has a trained musicians ear.
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PBJ, you don't get to be a judge for obvious reasons. I've been hired by the estate of a well known SoCal rocker to restore some demos that he had put to acetate. I've also had one of my drops "appropriated" by a reissue label that decided my drop sounded better than their tape. But I don't need to sell myself. I am happy to let the files speak for themselves.
As far as a bet goes, I'm not comfortable with large amounts of money as I don't want to let this friendly exercise gain the potential to cause division on the board or among any members. A small cash wager or even better, a bet where we each put up a component or a valued record is more in the spirit of the board IMHO. What do you have for desirable records? I could put up my Grundman "MCA Audiophile" pressing of "Gaucho", or my copy of "Don't Buy or Sell" by The Replacements. I don't know what you are into enough to gauge what would interest you.
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Besides, how good can he be when this whole idea started with him begging a stranger to throw him some bones?
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First, you don't have your facts right. I'll let BJ address that.
Second, why are you making this a personal attack? Nobody attacked you. A friendly "ping pong" game is fine.
Sorry, but you also don't understand physics as demonstrated by you claiming anti skating affects the centrifugal force of a spinning record. This is just not true. I'm not really in the mood to write a dissertation on the subject right now. I'm going to watch hockey and listen to music.
Over & Out
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I wasn't looking for "bones", I was being friendly. If I needed "bones" so badly, I'd be working right now and not having this petty discussion. I have no interest in any components right now, and I don't think we really have the same taste in music. My money is just as green as yours though. And I haven't even dropped any names yet :D
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It was friendly smack talk. WTF ever happened to the board where we all tell each other "glub, glub"? Forget I ever said anything if that makes you happy.
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Didn't you guys ever see an Ali/Frazier fight? Or more importantly, the pre-fight banter?
Okay, this is no fun anymore.
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Screw smack talk, let tom pick a record and a judge or 2, and we'll see what's what. I hope you know about spectral analysis and cleaning, logarithmic equalization, and noise filtration. And Ps, 96k isn't as impressive as 192 by a long shot.
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Screw smack talk, let tom pick a record and a judge or 2, and we'll see what's what. I hope you know about spectral analysis and cleaning, logarithmic equalization, and noise filtration. And Ps, 96k isn't as impressive as 192 by a long shot.
This post insults my intelligence.
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Have you ummmm heard the CDs I made from my LPs ?
You have to have a good source first.
Helps if you have a great moving coil phono cartridge in a good sounding modded out turntable.
Ask Tom about them.
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And Ps, 96k isn't as impressive as 192 by a long shot.
Your sig says "Presonus FP10". I didn't think they did 192.
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(http://bio3blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/scarjo-popcorn.gif)
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I have since upgraded a few things, but I haven't redone my signature in a while. I'll get there eventually. My signature is like an Asian hooker, sometimes I think about it, but I don't really care about it :p
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Well then, 192 is fine. Or we could just produce Redbook so that dithering, SBEs. etc also get to enter the equation.
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I'm working on some Digital to Wax Cylinders and trying to decide if I should start with 192k or 96k 8 bit. >:D
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I have since upgraded a few things, but I haven't redone my signature in a while. I'll get there eventually. My signature is like an Asian hooker, sometimes I think about it, but I don't really care about it :p
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When is this happening? Will there be pizza, beer and cheerleaders for each side?
PS: a properly recorded cassette tape w Dolby C on will kick the butt of a typical mp3 file at 128 kbps.
Cappy
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PS: a properly recorded cassette tape w Dolby C on will kick the butt of a typical mp3 file at 128 kbps.
Cappy
Well, that's settin' the bar high, isn't it?
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(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/228/422/107815%20-%20animated%20animation%20artist%253ASubjectNumber2394%20fight%20gif%20sissy_slap_fight%20Trixie%20twilight_sparkle.gif)
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When is this happening? Will there be pizza, beer and cheerleaders for each side?
PS: a properly recorded cassette tape w Dolby C on will kick the butt of a typical mp3 file at 128 kbps.
Cappy
Well no shit.
I'm totally cool with however you want to do it. Technically, if our final result is a redbook, it's easier to get them to the judges. Not everyone has systems setup to listen to 96, and now that I think of it... I don't know anyone on here that can playback 192. It's kind of a rare format, which is a crying shame. Alright then, so let me get this straight.
1) Tom picks record.
2) Each one of us converts it on our own.
3) The final product must be 16-bit/44.1k.
4) In this contest, vinyl noise (clicks, pops, hiss, etc.) is regarded as a negative. We are aiming for sonic clarity here, and those things, although enjoyed by some, are technically a detriment to the sound.
5) We are allowed to use any equipment we have access to.
6) The judges are Frank Hawk, Reverend, Sparky, and Anders.
7) There will be no multiple attempts. The first thing you turn in will be the final thing you turn in.
I think these rules are fair. The only one that I find negotiable is number 5. Thrifty, if you want us to just use our own equipment, I'm ok with that too. Let me know.
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Sorry if I'm missing something here.
Is the goal to obtain the most accurate A to D conversion when compared to the original source material or is the goal to create the most appealing sound in the final product?
The latter is much more subjective.
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HELL YEAH!!! It's official...it's a walk off... Zoolander - Walk Off Scene official (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy84r1)
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I'm totally cool with however you want to do it. Technically, if our final result is a redbook, it's easier to get them to the judges. Not everyone has systems setup to listen to 96, and now that I think of it... I don't know anyone on here that can playback 192. It's kind of a rare format, which is a crying shame. Alright then, so let me get this straight.
1) Tom picks record.
2) Each one of us converts it on our own.
3) The final product must be 16-bit/44.1k.
4) In this contest, vinyl noise (clicks, pops, hiss, etc.) is regarded as a negative. We are aiming for sonic clarity here, and those things, although enjoyed by some, are technically a detriment to the sound.
5) We are allowed to use any equipment we have access to.
6) The judges are Frank Hawk, Reverend, Sparky, and Anders.
7) There will be no multiple attempts. The first thing you turn in will be the final thing you turn in.
I think these rules are fair. The only one that I find negotiable is number 5. Thrifty, if you want us to just use our own equipment, I'm ok with that too. Let me know.
I assumed the judging would be an event we all attend, double blind with Tom playing the files to the judges without them knowing whose file is whose. Any other method and personality has too much of a chance to come into play. If this comes down to a popularity contest, I've lost before the game has even begun.
Redbook it is, I guess the next step will be for Tom to provide you the vinyl. You do your thing, I do mine and we decide a time and place (presumably the shop) to compare the files.
As far as using just our own gear or "borrowing up", since this is just a gentleman's wager, I think we should be able to produce the same results we do in standard practice. That said, you can use whatever you want (how would anyone know anyway?) but I plan to wow you guys with just how great a modest system (carefully selected and matched by a knowledgeable user) can sound. I plan on doing this drop exactly the same way I do ones for my own consumption. Besides, I'm more interested in checking out your skills than I am in checking out your gear.
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Sorry if I'm missing something here.
Is the goal to obtain the most accurate A to D conversion when compared to the original source material or is the goal to create the most appealing sound in the final product?
The latter is much more subjective.
For sure it is subjective. Dropping is an art, and like with any art beauty will be in the eye (ear) of the beholder. One file could "win" for no other reason than that judge likes the voicing of cartridge "A" better than the voicing of cartridge "B". If bj is as skilled as he says he is, our work on the files should be transparent.
This is all in good fun, I'm trying to not read too much into it.
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You know, the only problem with using Redbook is that it possibly leaves us open to the charge that these aren't drops at all, but CD files. So, let's judge on the Redbook but also provide the matching hi-res files they were sourced from "just in case".
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What is Redbook? This is a serious question. I really don't know. I really can't picture Thrifty & BJ sitting there reading Redbook Magazine! :-)
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here
Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA or CD-DA) is the standard format for audio Compact Discs. The standard is defined in the Red Book, one of a series of "Rainbow Books" (named for their binding colors) that contain the technical specifications for all CD formats.
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Blind is the only way to judge
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So we're not talking about Redbook the women's magazine! :-)
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HELL YEAH!!! It's official...it's a walk off... Zoolander - Walk Off Scene official (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xy84r1)
Bwaahahahaha damn that's funny
ray
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So we're not talking about Redbook the women's magazine! :-)
It was starting to sound like it but it's great to find someone willing to A/B/X test their own work. My hat is off to you guys!! FWIW, playback should be done on a neutral(not one of your) system. Preservation of the acoustic environment should be taken in to consideration also. At my advanced age it's all I can hear anymore but it is one aspect digital recordings don't seem to get right.
ray
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I wasn't really planning on making an event out of this. I figured that we would just burn a cd with files "one" and "two" on it. I liked this idea more because the judges can all listen on systems that they are comfortable with, as opposed to using the system at the shop, which is ever-changing.
Also, thrifty, I want to clarify your use of the word "transparent". If I were going to do a transparent conversion, I would just hit record, and that's it. Transparent means unnoticeable to me, and I don't want my work to be unnoticeable.
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By "transparent" I meant devoid of artifacts.
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it's great to find someone willing to A/B/X test their own work. My hat is off to you guys!! FWIW, playback should be done on a neutral(not one of your) system.
I agree completely, which is why I suggested the shop, though I'm happy to do it at any neutral site. Any judge who wants to host this party is cool with me.
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I would love to have a copy of these files sent to me, so I can check them out on my own system
FLAC is fine.
Brian
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After this is over I will put my files on a host site for anyone who wants to hear them. I can't speak for bj, though.
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I probably won't put mine online; primarily because I'm too lazy :P. But F'n Brit, I can definitely forward a copy your way.
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I probably won't put mine online; primarily because I'm too lazy :P. But F'n Brit, I can definitely forward a copy your way.
"O" yea I forgot that you where a lazy bastard, we all had to nag you a CF13 to get anything done.
Looking forward to getting your tunes sent to me, so I can check them both out myself.
Brian
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Any update on this? Curious to hear how it goes down...
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As I understand it, we are waiting for Tom to choose an album and get it to bj (unless he has done that and I am unaware).
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Not yet. He's still choosing. I've been busy as hell, so I haven't been in touch in a few days. I should know more tomorrow.
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Tom is scrounging around for a lousy elevator music lp that was played with a nail and smells like mold and vomit. He want's to see who can work through the pain and turn a sowl's ear into a masterpiece.
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Well, he should get something out of the deal, being our host and all.
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Tom is scrounging around for a lousy elevator music lp that was played with a nail and smells like mold and vomit. He want's to see who can work through the pain and turn a sowl's ear into a masterpiece.
haha if he's providing that quality of record, he better be providing us with new styli after too!
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Good news( for us) bad news for the two doing the deed. >:D
It will not be one disc... It will be four >:D :(|)
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A four disc set that sounds perfectly good on it's CD issue? And a live album to boot? Crowd noise, etc will get in the way of showing our work. If bj is agreeable to it, I will be also, but I don't think it is a very good choice. Seems an awful lot of effort for (I strongly suspect) very minimal return.
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Hell no I'm not doing pulse. I was more hoping we would just do one song. Like mark said, it's too much work for no return. I don't have time for that, and I doubt mark does either. In other words, f**k that shit.
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I won't go as far as to say "one song", but I will strongly request a single album of studio material. Again, one that hasn't appeared on CD would be great. There are lots of 'em out there.
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Here is the deal. I am giving you both a golden opportunity to turn 4 ,very rare,kick ass Pink Floyd pulse lp's ( $350-$500 for the set) into kickass digital that is better that the CD version that the entire forum could benefit from.
DO YOU TWO TAKE THE CHALLENGE!!! BTW, you f up the albums... you die!
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Electric Light Orchestra - Showdown [HQ] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mmx68VmTEo#)
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Clash of the Titans!!!
Release the Kraken!!
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Here is the deal. I am giving you both a golden opportunity
Who are you, Huck Finn?
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:P PINK FLOYD!!!!! :P
This is great!!!! I would like copies of the files also if that is possible. ;)
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I think that bj and I are in complete agreement that we are NOT dropping Pulse.
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I am out of it then. The rules were, I come up with the lp's. No pulse... no contest.
I think that bj and I are in complete agreement that we are NOT dropping Pulse.
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So sayeth the shepherd...
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Alright then, so let me get this straight.
1) Tom picks record.
I think these rules are fair. The only one that I find negotiable is number 5. Thrifty, if you want us to just use our own equipment, I'm ok with that too. Let me know.
Record. Singular. One. No pleural.
Seriously, declicking eight live sides is about thirty hours work. I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just too much work for a gentleman's wager.
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Did someone queef in here? Eeeww...
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Ok, Tom's out... I picked up blacks and blues by bobbi humphrey recently, and it's not exactly in mint condition. Should be a good challenge if you want to take it on.
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I'm game if bj is.
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Tom, I've given this some thought and if it is important to you to get a good drop of Pulse I will give you one. I will do it as a favor to a friend. But I will do it after this contest. To show our work, one very necessary element is moments of silence. Those don't occur in live albums.
Pick another album for the contest. A single album of studio material. I will give you your drop of Pulse.
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after some debating with OCCD, he has convinced me that we should do Pulse. In the end, it's beneficial because we'll all have a high-res digital copy of one of the coolest albums floyd ever put out, and it will shut OCCD's mouth. so yeah. i guess i'll do pulse...
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Guys - I am very interested in the Pulse needle drop. If you ever do it, count me in for a FREE copy. >:D
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after some debating with OCCD, he has convinced me that we should do Pulse. In the end, it's beneficial because we'll all have a high-res digital copy of one of the coolest albums floyd ever put out, and it will shut OCCD's mouth. so yeah. i guess i'll do pulse...
Since you put it that way...
I'm in. Besides, I did some Googling and found out that the vinyl has a track that wasn't on the CD and I also found out to my surprise that it was an analog recording, so I guess it isn't a complete waste of time.
It will be more of a challenge to decide who's drop is better, though.
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I definitely want a copy of this once it's done!
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What happened??? Both of you decide to woosh out???
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I was under the impression that BJ was going to take possession of the album and do his drop, then let me know so I could pick it up. I haven't heard anything from him yet. The holidays are a very busy time in my house anyway, so I haven't pressed the issue.
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yeah, i've been busy as hell. i actually just got a call to do some conversions, so i'll have to calibrate my turntable and get my stuff setup in the next couple of weeks. once i have it set up and i do that job, i'll get started on Pulse
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Sir Thrift:
I have been listening to the digital drops you gave me on DVD for the last two hours, continuously. They sound pretty darn good. If I did not know I would not suspect they were sourced from vinyl, much less from a humble JVC TT with a AT440. Well done!
The captain salutes you...
Pepe
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Some of those are on the JVC, but many are on the Fisher that it replaced. Which ones did you check out? There is an info file with most.
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Glad you are enjoying them. More proof that you don't have to spend a ton of money for good sound if you are skilled at component matching.
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To help make this process quicker set a price for the recordings and offer to forum members. That way we all benefit.
I'd give $15 paypal for any exelent recording of Pink Floyd.
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To help make this process quicker set a price for the recordings and offer to forum members. That way we all benefit.
I'd give $15 paypal for any exelent recording of Pink Floyd.
I would most certainly be in for the same... I'd go $20 if I thought it'd help get this off the ground! I know that ain't much, but with enough of us....
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haha sorry this never happened yet. i've been so busy, and my turntable isn't even hooked up at the moment, nor is any of my recording stuff. i haven't been living in a stable location that allows me to hook up all my gear, so everything's being frankenstein'd. hopefully in a few weeks i'll have things a little better organized. just got myself a new yob (job), so a new apartment should be right around the corner. and i actually don't even have speakers right now (long story, should have new ones soon)
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haha sorry this never happened yet. i've been so busy, and my turntable isn't even hooked up at the moment, nor is any of my recording stuff. i haven't been living in a stable location that allows me to hook up all my gear, so everything's being frankenstein'd. hopefully in a few weeks i'll have things a little better organized. just got myself a new yob (job), so a new apartment should be right around the corner. and i actually don't even have speakers right now (long story, should have new ones soon)
Be that as it may, everyone still thinks you've wussed out.
Sorry.
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To help make this process quicker set a price for the recordings and offer to forum members. That way we all benefit.
I'd give $15 paypal for any exelent recording of Pink Floyd.
I won't take cash for doing drops of in print material (at least not drops that will be shared). I do these for the love of the music. I am, however, open to taking donations of the vinyl that I drop.
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If somebody wants to order this and give it to me, I will do a drop for everyone. It is Muddy Waters finest recorded performance and has never been on CD.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIOUS-Blues-From-Big-Bills-Copa-Cabana-LP-re-Blues-R-B-/350951542705?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item51b6578fb1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VARIOUS-Blues-From-Big-Bills-Copa-Cabana-LP-re-Blues-R-B-/350951542705?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item51b6578fb1)
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There is a DJ copy on eBay for $50. I really like to work from promos, but I'm not sold on the condition. Maybe a better one will come up at some point.
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Im not up on modern audio tech talk......so....whats a "drop"???
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A drop is when you record an album to a high resolution digital file and then remove the vinyl artifact without damaging the music.
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A drop is when you record an album to a high resolution digital file and then remove the vinyl artifact without damaging the music.
Now......is an i-pod a hi resolution digital devise? Name others. Keep in mind Im from Kentucky, we just discovered shoes.
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I got my tax refund and was finally able to replace my damaged stylus. Are we gonna do this thing or what?
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Hey, what ever happened to this thing??
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Ask the newlywed.
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Mark has done one hell of a job on every needle drop of his that I have heard. I haven't heard anything Stephen has done. Maybe he'll surprise us, but he has a wife and a job to keep him busy.
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Thank you Carl.
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Good timing, about 2 weeks away from being able to do this. My big issue is that I didn't have a computer capable of doing this haha, but I just got it in the mail yesterday. The mobo is defective, so I'm sending it back today. Once it's here and everything's hooked up, I'll be good to roll.
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Ask people who have heard the cd I made from my lips.
Flamenco fever has great dynamics and the love is selling on eBay for $600.
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"Ask people who have heard the cd I made from my lips."
??????
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A drop is when you record an album to a high resolution digital file and then remove the vinyl artifact without damaging the music.
What does this mean?
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Ask people who have heard the cd I made from my lips.
Flamenco fever has great dynamics and the love is selling on eBay for $600.
LOL Translation = LPs Auto-correct at it's finest :)
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Good timing, about 2 weeks away from being able to do this. My big issue is that I didn't have a computer capable of doing this haha, but I just got it in the mail yesterday. The mobo is defective, so I'm sending it back today. Once it's here and everything's hooked up, I'll be good to roll.
Which mobo did you get?
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A drop is when you record an album to a high resolution digital file and then remove the vinyl artifact without damaging the music.
What does this mean?
Trade secret.
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Good timing, about 2 weeks away from being able to do this. My big issue is that I didn't have a computer capable of doing this haha, but I just got it in the mail yesterday. The mobo is defective, so I'm sending it back today. Once it's here and everything's hooked up, I'll be good to roll.
Which mobo did you get?
ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z. Supposed to be awesome. Think I might have gotten myself a lemon.
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Do yinz use special software? the reason I ask is I was wondering if Audacity is any good? if not any suggestions for a Mac user?
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It means you use a pop and click scratch remover.
Several audio programs include one and some do little damage to the sound and some screw the sound up alot.
I do manual click and pop removal.
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Manually I use Adobe Audition. Automatically I use Click Repair.
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Do yinz use special software? the reason I ask is I was wondering if Audacity is any good? if not any suggestions for a Mac user?
Audacity is the best free audio software you'll find. That being said, I don't think it's capable of doing most of what it takes to clean up audio. I use Magix Samplitude. I find that it has the most options, and runs really easily on even low-end systems, but it also costs a thousand dollars, so it BETTER be good.
Manually I use Adobe Audition. Automatically I use Click Repair.
Audition is supposed to be pretty good; I never had a chance to tinker with it though. I never messed with an automatic system before other than Cedar (which is stupid expensive, like 10 grand), does it actually work?
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Not only is CR really great (once you find the right settings), it is from a private individual rather than a corporation. Plus it is only $35 and has a 30 uncrippled trial to check it out. At least trying it for free is a no brainer IMHO.
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@Bearjew & STaL,
Thanks for the knowledge, I do appreciate it.
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Good timing, about 2 weeks away from being able to do this. My big issue is that I didn't have a computer capable of doing this haha, but I just got it in the mail yesterday. The mobo is defective, so I'm sending it back today. Once it's here and everything's hooked up, I'll be good to roll.
Which mobo did you get?
ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z. Supposed to be awesome. Think I might have gotten myself a lemon.
Ahh. I'm not a big fan of AMD processors & mobos. They run much hotter than Intel. The prices are great, but that's not much use if it burns out faster. From reviews on New Egg, it looks like others are having some trouble with the board too, others are doing ok. I really loved Asus boards back in the day. But then they started putting out this hybrid crap, and those boards always were discontinued quickly for issues. My last mobo was Asus, and it worked ok, but I wasn't jazzed about it. It was the first one I'd gotten in a long time. Decided to see if anything had improved. I hear Asus customer service leaves a lot to be desired. Thankfully I haven't needed them. I've had some good luck with Gigabyte boards, which used to be kinda iffy too. I have this one: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4802#kf (http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4802#kf)
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Let the gloves come off! LOL! >:D
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Good timing, about 2 weeks away from being able to do this. My big issue is that I didn't have a computer capable of doing this haha, but I just got it in the mail yesterday. The mobo is defective, so I'm sending it back today. Once it's here and everything's hooked up, I'll be good to roll.
Which mobo did you get?
ASUS Crosshair V Formula-Z. Supposed to be awesome. Think I might have gotten myself a lemon.
Ahh. I'm not a big fan of AMD processors & mobos. They run much hotter than Intel. The prices are great, but that's not much use if it burns out faster. From reviews on New Egg, it looks like others are having some trouble with the board too, others are doing ok. I really loved Asus boards back in the day. But then they started putting out this hybrid crap, and those boards always were discontinued quickly for issues. My last mobo was Asus, and it worked ok, but I wasn't jazzed about it. It was the first one I'd gotten in a long time. Decided to see if anything had improved. I hear Asus customer service leaves a lot to be desired. Thankfully I haven't needed them. I've had some good luck with Gigabyte boards, which used to be kinda iffy too. I have this one: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4802#kf (http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4802#kf)
I was going to give them another chance, but I'm returning the whole setup. My laptop just died, so I need to replace that; I'll get a desktop another day. Still like ASUS though. I beat the shit out of that laptop for a few years, and it had served it's purpose for being only 400 dollars.