Author Topic: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves  (Read 21142 times)

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 11:37:46 PM »
I reject expectation bias and I keep an open mind and open ears.

Not to be argumentative, but I've seen expectation bias far too many times (not related to burn-in, though) to reject it out of hand.

Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2015, 01:09:09 AM »
Crites saying cap burn in is not real is a hoot especially when the guy that makes the caps he uses knows there is. If you want a detailed explanation as to why caps burn in, ask Jeff at Sonicap, but be sure you have at least an hour to talk with him. Part of what I recall has to do with material forming amd something about holes. Frankly, I don't care why I just know they do from many years of personal experience.

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They immediately sounded different. However, since then they sound the same to me as they did after the recap. Is it possible the change is so subtle in that 1st 200hrs that it's impossible for the "unlearned ear" to hear it?

What caps did you use?

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We can probably all agree that expectation bias could make us believe there are changes? 

I strongly disagree.
  'Political Correctness'.........defined

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Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2015, 02:10:46 AM »
Just to be clear, F1, are you stating that there is no such of a thing as expectation bias?

Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2015, 02:27:29 AM »
Show me someone with expectation bias and I'll show you someone that lacks self confidence.
  'Political Correctness'.........defined

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Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2015, 03:21:18 AM »
Reading through his comments again. That he thinks all caps sound the same, that cables don't burn in and his comments about bypass caps gives me pause. Bypassing electrolytic caps does help, but bypassing film/foil caps results in annoying artifacts. However, in either case it is clearly audible, so for him to say he can't hear it leads me to wonder if his hearing isn't completely shot.
  'Political Correctness'.........defined

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Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2015, 09:09:17 AM »
I don't see where he says that all caps sound the same.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2015, 09:10:12 AM »
So expectation bias is real.

bearjew

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2015, 09:45:07 AM »
There was a thread awhile back about caps, it was suggested 200hrs and they'd be broken in. So I recapped a set of speakers. They immediately sounded different. However, since then they sound the same to me as they did after the recap. Is it possible the change is so subtle in that 1st 200hrs that it's impossible for the "unlearned ear" to hear it? I don't think my ears are sensitive enough or my memory strong enough to remember the sound differences.

It is quite possible.  I learned this when I re-capped my M-500.  I re-capped it, took it home, and turned it on.  It sounded like shit in my opinion.  The next morning, I put a playlist on, and left.  I came home and it sounded a little better.  For the next couple days, I did the same thing to burn it in, and it was a very big, clear difference.  If you continuously listen throughout the burn-in, you probably won't hear it as well as if you only take a listen every once in a while.  By the time the caps were burnt in, I was hearing harmonies that I had never heard before in songs that I've heard a thousand times.

Reading through his comments again. That he thinks all caps sound the same, that cables don't burn in and his comments about bypass caps gives me pause. Bypassing electrolytic caps does help, but bypassing film/foil caps results in annoying artifacts. However, in either case it is clearly audible, so for him to say he can't hear it leads me to wonder if his hearing isn't completely shot.

I was thinking the same thing.  If he's not hearing it, then there's definitely something up with his hearing.

bearjew

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2015, 10:58:39 AM »
I don't see where he says that all caps sound the same.

He doesn't say they sound the same; he says that the sound doesn't change the more they break-in.  It's the very first thing on the link at the top of the thread.

"Q:  Do components have a break-in time?
A:  Some do and some don't.  Capacitors would be a definite NO.  Let's look at this one a bit."

Offline RuralTom

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Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2015, 11:52:01 AM »
So expectation bias is real.

For you it seems to be. For me, no.
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Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2015, 11:56:49 AM »
I don't see where he says that all caps sound the same.


Here you go....

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Q: Do different capacitors sound differently?

A:  Good caps all sound the same.
  'Political Correctness'.........defined

"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
 

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2015, 12:37:31 PM »
He put a qualifier there.   He didn't say all caps sound the same, he said all GOOD caps sound the same.   He fails to define what a good cap is.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2015, 12:40:50 PM »
So expectation bias is real.

For you it seems to be. For me, no.

I've played the same file for people twice and told them that one was done with a different dither algorithm and they would swear that the one sounded better.

In my experience, the people who most vehemently deny expectation bias end up being the ones most susceptible to it.   They are the vaccine deniers of the audio world.

bearjew

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2015, 01:44:03 PM »
He put a qualifier there.   He didn't say all caps sound the same, he said all GOOD caps sound the same.   He fails to define what a good cap is.

Not all good caps sound the same though.  Not by a long shot.  Maybe he knows the truth, but denies it to prevent sounding like an audiophile snob :P