Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => List your system => Topic started by: OldiesButGoodies on March 22, 2014, 03:58:14 PM
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Will use this thread to update anyone interested in my experience with the Platinums.
Today I replaced the 64 screws holding the 8 woofers with heavier-duty wood screws. I also added some speaker-seal material to the edges of the woofers. I may do the Dynamat mod on the woof baskets later on, but this should for now as far as the woofers:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7505_zps16d2b2d2.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7505_zps16d2b2d2.jpg.html)
The 6 screws holding the rear basket were also replaced.
Per F1nut's suggestion I added extra right angle braces to the bases and placed a 60 pound bag of sand on each:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7506_zps28a05ec9.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7506_zps28a05ec9.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7507_zpsaf22893f.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7507_zpsaf22893f.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7509_zps9bfc986d.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7509_zps9bfc986d.jpg.html)
Tomorrow I plan to work on the baffle finish (try to polish it) and on replacing the grill fabric.
The sound continues to improve and impress me. The imaging is particularly good, and the bass makes a subwoofer unnecessary.
Me happy,
OBG
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@OCCD: I added felt backing to the left ribbon.
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7510_zps6265f7ca.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7510_zps6265f7ca.jpg.html)
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You even changed your avatar. I think it's love. :-*
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Very nice. They are good speakers!
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http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13659 (http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13659)
if ya cant read this let me know, i can post pics
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I can see the pics - wow, he went all the way damping those baskets. I am thinking of applying Dynamat to the radials of the basket only. I want to put some miles in them w/o the Dynamat so I can understand/notice the difference when I do apply it. When I do apply it I will also re-wire the woofs - the cables in there look wimpy to me.
Thanks for posting this.
OBG
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Nice progress Pepe! You are right about the bass, I subwoofer should not be necessary. Upu've got the right room space to let the Plats breath, that's also very important! Four feet or more from the rear and side walls really allow the imaging to come alive!
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Glad you're enjoying the plats. Keep the pics coming!
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Before reinstalling the rear shrouds I decided to rewire them and feed the rhodium ribbon terminals from behind shroud:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7512_zpsbad14244.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7512_zpsbad14244.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7513_zps8d78d114.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7513_zps8d78d114.jpg.html)
In the meantime I also got a hold of an Carver ECS-U "speaker control system" (thanks Tom [and Rev for dropping it off]) - also playing with that to see if it helps:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7515_zpse562ade7.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7515_zpse562ade7.jpg.html)
The room is a mess - will clean up after I redo the grills later today:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7514_zps577156c5.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7514_zps577156c5.jpg.html)
[I am recapping m&k plate amp w the great caps you sent over later today (for home theater use - nothing to do with the Carvers) - will let you know how they sound]
One future mod I plan to do in the summer is to send the the baffles to body shop to have them repainted piano black - this paint is a tad worn.
O0
Thanks for looking,
OBG
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I can see the pics - wow, he went all the way damping those baskets. I am thinking of applying Dynamat to the radials of the basket only. I want to put some miles in them w/o the Dynamat so I can understand/notice the difference when I do apply it. When I do apply it I will also re-wire the woofs - the cables in there look wimpy to me.
Thanks for posting this.
OBG
Dynamat Extreme should be applied to the spokes only, it's all that's needed and makes a noticeable improvement. You're right, the wire gauge is crap, but according to Bob he spec'd that gauge for a reason. I believe that reason was money. I upgraded mine with Cardas 11.5 gauge (requires a solder pot), which resulted in a dramatic improvement to the bass, which I found rather weak in stock form.
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What size are those OB woofers? 10"s or 12"s? I can't tell and have no knowledge of the system.
How deep do they go? 50s? 40s? I bet they're great on drum kicks.
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Looking good Pepe! Jesse's recommendation on the Dynamat is spot on. You won't need a whole lot to be effective.
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Agree on the Dynamat just going to wait a week before doing it.
Hey Adam, the woofs are 12". They go down to 22 or 23 hz in stock depending on what specs you read. Not sure how that changes with the active crossover and the ECS-U unit inline (it allows you to adjust the Q and has a palpable effect on low bass).
I will hook up the microphone to the laptop tonight and run a sweep on room eq wizard to see how low they actually go in this room. Will report on that.
Regards,
OBG
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They sounded very good, i'm sure your improvements have only made them better. Licknuts!
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Pepe,
Do you spend more time listening or working on them? I'll assume the Kappas are off the table. With four woofs, I imagine the low frequencies are very solid. Are the baffles just for protection or if not, how do they affect the sound?
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By baffles I mean the piece of wood where the woofers and ribbons are mounted. The grills are what I have been working on this afternoon - while listening to them, so I was multitasking. I like the bass. Interesting design in that there is no enclosure holding back pressure for these woofs, it is an infinite baffle design (I can check infinite baffle speaker off my bucket list, woot).
I just finished the grills. Looking good, thank you Rev for donating the fabric! The plate amp recap is done, ordered the Dynamat Extreme tape from Amazon, and still have time to replace the op amps in the Onkyo. Some pics of the grill process:
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7524_zpsf948bcd6.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7524_zpsf948bcd6.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7523_zps574f6f3e.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7523_zps574f6f3e.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7525_zps8f7800ec.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7525_zps8f7800ec.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7526_zps9bf00449.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7526_zps9bf00449.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7528_zps4650e32c.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7528_zps4650e32c.jpg.html)
(http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/namikis/IMG_7529_zpse936b0c4.jpg) (http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/namikis/media/IMG_7529_zpse936b0c4.jpg.html)
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Really nice work, Pepe.
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Interesting design in that there is no enclosure holding back pressure for these woofs, it is an infinite baffle design (I can check infinite baffle speaker off my bucket list, woot).
Those are actually open baffle, not infinite. Just want to make sure you get you're bucket list right because some real infinite baffle sub woofers should be on every ones bucket list.
Great work with the restoration!
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Since it is open baffle (I didn't notice that the rear cover is fabric, I initially thought it was a box), why put felt on the rear of the ribbon?
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Really good job with the new fabric! I hate working with that stuff!
I've never seen an OB speaker get much below 40hz in-room, but 4 12s is a lot of air moving. With an active system helping boost the low end I can see how it may be possible.
An IB Subwoofer would be a great addition to this rig, then you could have the IB sub take over the low bass, which would free up the 12"s for better mid clarity without the extra excursion required for low bass, help get rid of some doppler effect.
4 long throw 18"s in a manifold is my dream. Effortless bass into the ultra low frequency. I can only reach 19hz f3 in my setup as it is.
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why put felt on the rear of the ribbon?
it helps with ribbon slap
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Apparently uncle Bob designed it to have some back-pressure created by the felt. And/or to keep dust away.
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I had a piece of felt that came with my AL-III+'s. I thought the felt was to be used when the speaker placement was close to the rear wall. I believe the intent of the ribbons was to be dipole so you could have reflections from the rear wall. Since you have the speakers 4 feet or more from the rear wall I don't see a need for the felt. I am no Carver guru so maybe some of the more experienced and knowledgeable Carver folks will chime in here. The magic of the Amazings really comes to life when these big speaker have a lot of space around them to breathe. Four to six feet from the rear and side walls allow the speakers to image and sound their best.
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Nice work on the grill cloth!
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4 long throw 18"s in a manifold is my dream. Effortless bass into the ultra low frequency. I can only reach 19hz f3 in my setup as it is.
I have heard the Plat MK IVs with an 18" sub. I agree it can really add to the very deep low bass. I would place a big SW on the side wall if Pepe's space permits.
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Bass horn!!!!! Pepe!!!
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Lookin good!
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I had a piece of felt that came with my AL-III+'s. I thought the felt was to be used when the speaker placement was close to the rear wall. I believe the intent of the ribbons was to be dipole so you could have reflections from the rear wall. Since you have the speakers 4 feet or more from the rear wall I don't see a need for the felt. I am no Carver guru so maybe some of the more experienced and knowledgeable Carver folks will chime in here. The magic of the Amazings really comes to life when these big speaker have a lot of space around them to breathe. Four to six feet from the rear and side walls allow the speakers to image and sound their best.
The felt was an addition from the factory on later Plat's and Plat IV's. As you thought it allowed the panels to be placed closer to the back wall without issues, but I believe it was discovered to help overall.
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Carl, F1:
(I am off to day, so still playing around with the equipment)
I noticed that something changed about the musicality of the speakers yesterday. One cause that I am addressing today is that I put the new grill on top of the old, assuming the difference in transparence would be minimal. I think the acoustical transparence diminished significantly, and some of the critical 80-150 hz info is getting muddled. That is an easy fix.
The other is the felt. When I got the speakers from Tom, one ribbon had felt backing the other did not. Covering the one may have hurt the dipole effect a bit (an effect I like). Since I bought triple the amount of felt I needed at Michael's, I am going to take off the felt and see if the sound improves or how it changes. If the felt's purpose if to make them sound better against the back wall, I may leave it off, as I have them 2.5 feet away anyway. My concern was that it was meant to protect the ribbon in some way from dust.
I have been testing the ECS-U box in and out of the loop to see if the benefits are worth the cost of having it in the loop. It is a very quiet device, probably quieter than my Carver C-9. The bass Q trim is useful. The holography is ok, not as strong as the C-9, which may be a good thing if the speakers already image well. The Gundry dip control I am still testing. Will continue testing.
Regards,
OBG
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I didn't realize you put the new grill material over the existing ones. I bought that from PE to redo my Amazing Silvers. The reason I bought so much is I didn't know if I would have to double up or not. One layer works perfect, sounds like you should go this route.
My silvers had the felt backing on the ribbons as well. I experimented with this when I put the ribbons in my DIY speakers. The felt seems to take away some of the tintiness.
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I noticed that something changed about the musicality of the speakers yesterday. One cause that I am addressing today is that I put the new grill on top of the old, assuming the difference in transparence would be minimal. I think the acoustical transparence diminished significantly, and some of the critical 80-150 hz info is getting muddled. That is an easy fix.
The grill cloth really shouldn't have any effect in this range, however the distance to your wall has a very critical effect. Is there any chance you moved the speakers from where they were initially while you were working on them? Even toe-in can have a major effect in dipole setups. Or did you tape them off where they were so you have a constant reference? The wavelengths are so long around that frequency that they shouldn't have any interference with the cloth, only 8khz+ should be altered, but your cloth doesn't cover the ribbons so you don't have to worry about that.
Just my $.02
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Ok - removed the redundant layer of grill material and that helped a lot. I took the felt off of both ribbons, and to my ears it sounds better w/o. Will store the felt with the old cross-overs. Listening to an old Naxos recording of Malcolm Arnold Dances (Rev - we need to add fLACs of these to the server) on the CD-80. Sounds great. That damn CD80 still gives the Oppo a run for its money.
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Excellent! I', glad you took off the extra grill cloth and to your ears the speakers sound better w/o the felt. All that matters is what you hear with your ears in your room. Our opinions don't count LOL!
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Have you applied any Hello Kitty mods to them yet to match your modded Sunfire? :laugh:
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Yeah - Like Rev said - let's hear about the Hello Kitty Mods - MEOW!
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I have had more Carver ribbons than most people have had girlfriends. I am enjoying this thread,
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I have over 2000 classical LPs and most are great but there is only one classical CD I like and its Mozart piano concerto #13 on Bainbridge label.
Very much like sitting at a real concert.
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I have had more Carver ribbons than most people have had girlfriends. I am enjoying this thread,
The question is: Have YOU had more ribbons than girl friends?? LOL! >:D :laugh: O0
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At some point I will schedule a formal geek meeting at the basement to have some of you guys over for a listen. In the meantime, if you are near Peters township one of these evenings or during the weekend, PM me and will do my best to accommodate a listen.
I am definitely partial to ribbons. The sound is just more realistic to my ears. The Carver 60" line source is hard to beat, even if you have to have them rebuilt every so many years.
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Screw the ribbons - give the people what they really want! - We want to hear about the Hello Kitty Mods - MEOW!
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Nice work Pepe!