Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Buy Sell Trade Audio Equipment => Home Audio Equipment in the Burgh => Topic started by: bearjew on April 07, 2016, 12:42:21 PM
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Does anyone have an amp that would comfortably power Carver Line sources that they could possibly loan out for as much as two months? It will be kept safely in a smoke free environment where the dog doesn't really go.
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I think you should consider one of these Behringers as a temp/backup amp:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/iNUKE-NU3000-Power-Amp.gc?pfm=sp (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/iNUKE-NU3000-Power-Amp.gc?pfm=sp)
I know it sounds crazy and counter-audiophile-culture to recommend anything Behringer, but I have experienced a couple of demos recently that were jaw dropping good and when I looked in they were using inuke amps. As a temporary solution they are hard to beat (and for subs they are great). Can you rent one at Pianos & Stuff just to try?
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I think you should consider one of these Behringers as a temp/backup amp:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/iNUKE-NU3000-Power-Amp.gc?pfm=sp (http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer/iNUKE-NU3000-Power-Amp.gc?pfm=sp)
I know it sounds crazy and counter-audiophile-culture to recommend anything Behringer, but I have experienced a couple of demos recently that were jaw dropping good and when I looked in they were using inuke amps. As a temporary solution they are hard to beat (and for subs they are great). Can you rent one at Pianos & Stuff just to try?
I'm hesitant to do this, but I have thought about the inukes just as an extra beater. They certainly would power those beasts though. I guess I'd have to buy a sharpie also to cover up the brand name. The speakers are supposedly 92db efficient, so they don't actually need as much power as they're rated for.
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Unless it is from a first world country, brand name is practically meaningless any more. All that stuff comes from the same few factories (design aside, of course, but I have heard good things about those amps).
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Weighing in at 6.6 lb. and putting out 400 W into 8 ohms doesn't seem to add up. But what do I know about Class D amps? Nothing.
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The common concerns raised are what Scott mentioned (light), the level controls, and the fan noise.
I could not hear the fan where I listened to these (he was running two bridge for L and R) and the power and resolution were definitely there.
I think getting one as a backup amp for PA in backyard/summer block party would be a good use case. But many "audiophiles" are using them full time. A slight step up would be the Crown line up.
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The common concerns raised are what Scott mentioned (light), the level controls, and the fan noise.
I could not hear the fan where I listened to these (he was running two bridge for L and R) and the power and resolution were definitely there.
I think getting one as a backup amp for PA in backyard/summer block party would be a good use case. But many "audiophiles" are using them full time. A slight step up would be the Crown line up.
These are fantastic. Dead silent background noise, active cooling when needed, built-in protections and crossover utilities, and gobs of power at a reasonable price. Heard them in a larger set of infinities. Also have adjustable input sensitivity to match better with home-level gear. It would be between these and Emotiva for my $ if I were buying new. http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series (http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series)
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I might have an extra if you can stop by.....
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I have both a small Adcom and a Robertson you are welcome to try/ borrow....
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I might have an extra if you can stop by.....
An extra? I think you have 40 extras haha. It sounds like James will be shipping them up though, but if he doesn't, I'll definitely be coming by your way.
Class D amps are all over Audiogon and US Audio Mart these days. They're getting insanely popular. I guess now could be a good time for me for myself how they sound. I'd probably go with a Crown though, like AdamG suggested. regardless of what people say about the behringer quality of today, my experience with them has left a fairly bad taste in my mouth, considering the sound, as well as the reliability. Maybe they're better today, but I'll leave that to someone else to figure out. Either way, I'll probably just try to acquire one of these amps via eBay for as cheap as possible.
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If you are going to go pro sound, don't rule out QSC. Many of their amps are still made in the USA and sound really good.
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Off topic...but since several class d amps have been mentioned I thought I'd through this out there
I am a huge fan of class d amps. Properly executed ones. I have found them to be very neutral, extremely musical, not sterile and overall
just plain fun and engaging. Explosive dynamics, seemingly endless power and bar none the best woofer control I've ever heard. Very tight bass....nothing any of my tube amps (push pull, single ended, still own my Decware SET) or any of my SS amps could ever do.
Most class d amps have great dampening factors. Starts and stops a woofer on a dime.
Micro dynamics are superb. Macro dynamics (again, the feeling of endless power) is spectacular. Are they perfect? No. Do they work with all types of speakers? No. Horns don't seem to like them from what I've read on several websites. There may be the tiniest ( And i mean super tiny amount) of hiss from certain tweeters. They do far more right than wrong. I least the ones I've heard. So don't rule them out yet. They are getting better and better. You must allow yourself a paradigm shift and keep an open mind. I have no secrets...you don't have to agree..but my goto amp right now is the Crown XLS2500. Superbly musical and engaging. I've owned some pretty good tube amps over the years as well as SS amps. I've borrowed and traded for many years with other friends and havnt had one itch to trade my Crown amp. Smooth mids and highs, tight and deep bass. It's far better than any old school audiophile would think. Just my opinion gained from direct use and comparisons. YMMV. Your system's synergy may not like it. Don't whole heartedly discount them entirely. My Crown at a few hundred bucks has performed well beyond my expectations. Good luck with your project.
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If you are going to go pro sound, don't rule out QSC. Many of their amps are still made in the USA and sound really good.
I actually forgot about them. I used one for a while when I was gigging in Virginia, and I liked it a lot. It seemed to push my 15" driver and my 4x10" rather effortlessly.
I probably do need to take a step back and look at these class D amps though. When I first heard the line sources, they were paired with Carver Silver 9's, and Silver 7's, so I have this impression built in my head that I won't be satisfied with anything less than unobtainium, but realistically, I have no reason to discredit Crown or QSC, considering my experience with them is lacking and/or good, respectively. It certainly would be an easy way to provide ample power, considering the Silver 700's cost literally 100 times more.
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Off topic...but since several class d amps have been mentioned I thought I'd through this out there
I am a huge fan of class d amps. Properly executed ones. I have found them to be very neutral, extremely musical, not sterile and overall
just plain fun and engaging. Explosive dynamics, seemingly endless power and bar none the best woofer control I've ever heard. Very tight bass....nothing any of my tube amps (push pull, single ended, still own my Decware SET) or any of my SS amps could ever do.
Most class d amps have great dampening factors. Starts and stops a woofer on a dime.
Micro dynamics are superb. Macro dynamics (again, the feeling of endless power) is spectacular. Are they perfect? No. Do they work with all types of speakers? No. Horns don't seem to like them from what I've read on several websites. There may be the tiniest ( And i mean super tiny amount) of hiss from certain tweeters. They do far more right than wrong. I least the ones I've heard. So don't rule them out yet. They are getting better and better. You must allow yourself a paradigm shift and keep an open mind. I have no secrets...you don't have to agree..but my goto amp right now is the Crown XLS2500. Superbly musical and engaging. I've owned some pretty good tube amps over the years as well as SS amps. I've borrowed and traded for many years with other friends and havnt had one itch to trade my Crown amp. Smooth mids and highs, tight and deep bass. It's far better than any old school audiophile would think. Just my opinion gained from direct use and comparisons. YMMV. Your system's synergy may not like it. Don't whole heartedly discount them entirely. My Crown at a few hundred bucks has performed well beyond my expectations. Good luck with your project.
I agree with the above and it reinforces what I heard at a recent demo, though one of the demos I heard included an inuke driving a horn-loaded tweeter and it sounded beautiful to my old ears (so as atudio states, system synergy means result may vary).
I looked back at my audio porn photo album (the stuff I have purchased and sold over time) and noticed I did own a Crown XLS 2500 for a few months. It drove my Infinity RS 1 towers beautifully, but I eventually sold it because the (crude) servo system in those old speakers did not like amps that invert polarity - it creates a feedback loop and your speakers and amp can self-destruct if you don't catch it fast enough. Without the crossover it sounded great though. I should have kept that amp, it gave the Bob Carver 305s a run for their money (this is where the late Rev would go into convulsions and Papabear will start crowing about how he still owns the first tape deck he bought in 1972... let it begin...). The point is - there are some pretty decent class D designs out there, I suspect we should give them a chance (and absolutely do that for woofers in biamped systems - refer to the damping factor comment).
Would like to hear StephenWVU's comments on his recent experience with the Devialet 200 - an absurdly expensive integrated amp($9K) with class D amps. He is about to sell it but he had good things to say about it too.
Regards
OBG
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Interesting stuff here, good learning about something I wouldn't have considered.
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I actually completely ignored the existence of Class D amps until this conversation. I'm convinced that I should give one a try, but I won't be convinced to own one until I actually hear it. If anyone has one and wants to demo it with a pair of Carver Line Sources in early May, let me know.
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Don't forget the best thing about solid state vs tube: reliability. Tube amps are gumpy, they have to warm up, they have limited life, they can pick up microphonics, they don't like dynamic impedance loads, and on top they're more expensive from the get-go. If one of your $400 crown amp blows up, you can replace it with another $400 crown amp. If your $1500 tube amp blows up, it might be a tube, it may be an OPT, it may be an internal component, you have to drag it to a tech, wait a couple of weeks, drag it back, and all the while its life is counting down.
This isn't to say I don't like tube amps, I love the sound, but in my situation a tube amp isn't a realistic option. I've got a tube pre-amp which I use sometimes however, and adore.
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Don't forget the best thing about solid state vs tube: reliability. Tube amps are gumpy, they have to warm up, they have limited life, they can pick up microphonics, they don't like dynamic impedance loads, and on top they're more expensive from the get-go. If one of your $400 crown amp blows up, you can replace it with another $400 crown amp. If your $1500 tube amp blows up, it might be a tube, it may be an OPT, it may be an internal component, you have to drag it to a tech, wait a couple of weeks, drag it back, and all the while its life is counting down.
This isn't to say I don't like tube amps, I love the sound, but in my situation a tube amp isn't a realistic option. I've got a tube pre-amp which I use sometimes however, and adore.
Yeah, I'm kind of straying away from tube as well. As much as I enjoy it, I'm not in a situation where I can deal with the maintenance. Hell, I'm not in a situation where I should even have those speakers... sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, I suppose.
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@OBG, The Teac I bought on Feb 22, 1972 was not my first reel to reel deck. I had two before that starting about 1968. The Teac was the first one worth keeping.
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Would like to hear StephenWVU's comments on his recent experience with the Devialet 200 - an absurdly expensive integrated amp($9K) with class D amps. He is about to sell it but he had good things to say about it too.
Regards
OBG
So would I, i'm very interested in knowing what he does not like about his Devialet 200.
I am a very happy Devialet 400 owner since I sold my set of Silver Seven Tube amps last September.
I find them to be fast, detailed, slightly warm and the tightest Bass going. If you feed them a not so good recording, boy you will know it.
Brian
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StephenWVU has had several systems in a row with very good, expansive sound fields - even going back to when he had the Martin Logan + C19 + Carver 305 setup. The mix (including cables - he invested a lot in that) created a sense of depth and imaging that was to be respected. Same with the Vac system he had for a while thereafter. The Devialet lacks as deep a soundstage as the VAC did, but net of that he is happy with it. I have not listened to it as he now lives too far away, but he has described it like this over email (I am sure he concurs with you as far as what is does well). It will be up for sale soon I hear.
OBG
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Hi everyone!
My impressions of the Devialet are much what you might expect. I loved how SILENT the unit is, the simplicity of use is great because even my wife had not troubles with it, and it does throw a very wide soundstage. I would describe the DAC as almost completely transparent. Even the phono outperformed many others I have had in the past, which is impressive because it goes through an ADC and back through its DAC. The issues I have had with it and the reasons I am selling it are because the soundstage and the inability to properly EQ the towers. With the VAC equipment I could shut my eyes and really believe the stage was 35 feet back with no indication that I was in my listening room. The Devialet throws the soundstage back around 15 feet (around 5 feet behind the speakers). Some people prefer this forward soundstage. I do not. My Pipedream 18 speakers utilize an external crossover. The lows on the towers themselves are equalized a bit and without separate amplifiers I cannot achieve the perfect equalization I would want. I did try the Devialet with a pair of Sonus Faber speakers and utilized the SAM technology and I was impressed.. I still didn't get the deep soundstage I want, but that could have been a lot of other conditions causing that.
Hope this helps! The unit is already posted for sale. If anyone is interested, PM me. It probably isn't fair to compare a 9.5k MSRP piece to a 60k MSRP combo.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-devialet-d200-mint-condition-2016-04-09-integrateds-30263-raymond-ga (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-devialet-d200-mint-condition-2016-04-09-integrateds-30263-raymond-ga)
Best regards,
Stephen
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Would like to hear StephenWVU's comments on his recent experience with the Devialet 200 - an absurdly expensive integrated amp($9K) with class D amps. He is about to sell it but he had good things to say about it too.
Regards
OBG
So would I, i'm very interested in knowing what he does not like about his Devialet 200.
I am a very happy Devialet 400 owner since I sold my set of Silver Seven Tube amps last September.
I find them to be fast, detailed, slightly warm and the tightest Bass going. If you feed them a not so good recording, boy you will know it.
Brian
YOU SOLD THE SILVER SEVENS?!?
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YOU SOLD THE SILVER SEVENS?!?
BJ
Yep I did, I needed a change, so I went with a Devialet D400 (mono block) and I personally think they are great
even the sound stage.
Mike Beam picked them up, as fare as I know he is real happy with them.
I also got rid of my B&W 802D and last month I purchased a brand new set of B&W 803D3, they list for $20K here in Canada.
Missed you at Carverfest, I just booked my flight today for CF16, you should think about showing up.
Brian
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YOU SOLD THE SILVER SEVENS?!?
BJ
Yep I did, I needed a change, so I went with a Devialet D400 (mono block) and I personally think they are great
even the sound stage.
Mike Beam picked them up, as fare as I know he is real happy with them.
I also got rid of my B&W 802D and last month I purchased a brand new set of B&W 803D3, they list for $20K here in Canada.
Missed you at Carverfest, I just booked my flight today for CF16, you should think about showing up.
Brian
I'm glad Skeams got them; able to keep the amps in the family. How do you like the 803's? They're beautiful speakers. Vast improvement over the 802?
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The sound stage is good on the Devialet, but not as good as my last setup. The comparison isn't really fare though. My last setup MSRP was around 60k.
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There is no amp preamp DAC combination under 12k that I think would be better for non super efficient speakers.
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I'm glad Skeams got them; able to keep the amps in the family. How do you like the 803's? They're beautiful speakers. Vast improvement over the 802?
BJ
I also am happy that Mike picked up the Silver Sevens, as you say keep them in the family.
I'm finding in every aspect the 803D3 are superior to my 802D. The mids (vocals) are so crisp and clear with tighter bass and room filling bass
imaging and depth have increased as well.
Now i'm using a smaller speaker, I do believe the 802D's where to big for my room.
Chow Brian
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I concur....the soundstage from all of all my tube gear did/does beat the Crown. Much wider. Much deeper. More realistic. But I still prefer my crown and it's strengths over the wider soundstage.