Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slim-Shaddy on January 07, 2010, 06:03:37 PM
-
I can't believe this discussion hasn't been started yet!! I'm a fan of belt myself. Any way to isolate the motor seems smart to me. Of course if you are DJing the quick start-up and lack of belt wear and replacement of DD would obviously have it's perks.
-
I have been DJing for many years and wouldn't dream of using anything other than Direct Drive, turntables, specifically Technics SL1200 or 1100A. That is, when I'm DJing.
I have been planing on buying a better Belt Driven TT for home listening. I am currently using a Goldring GR1 which is identical to a Rega P1. For sound quality, I think belt drive wins.
-
I've got 3 working and 3 non belt drives and 2 direct that work. I love the ole belt (cause I'm old!) , but the direct drive is a good table too! If I were gonna buy a new one, I would go with direct drive. But all I buy is old stuff!!!!! 8) 8) 8)
-
You'll have to excuse my ignorance on the subject matter Gents. But the only Turntables that I ever recall listening to, was a Garrard(sp.?) and then later on I guess was a fairly high end Technics that I know was Direct Drive and unfortunately I can't recall the model# to it. ??? :-[
Anyways, I do remember a couple of things.......the Technics was built like a tank and the sound that it produced through my Fathers Marantz equipment was spectacular to say the least.
So.....My question is, if I were to buy a turntable for home use only, should I buy one that's belt or direct drive driven ? I'm sure there even more factors involved than just those two.......
Thank You Gentlemen.-----BILL
-
I think that either kind if well built can do a fine job, but I like belt drive. However, even some of the old rim drives sound pretty good and are quite collectible.
-
I've owned 3 DD (all technics) and 2 belt. The technics sounded nice and were built like tanks, but they weren't as quiet and the belts. I think the best dd I had was a sl1700?? and it was a good sounding tt (once I mated it with a good cartridge), but it was sold once I picked up a newer dual belt. That was the turning point for me. As for the build quality, the 1700 had it all the way, but the dual just sounded better. I'm now using a musichall mmf5 which smokes them all. I think all in all you are going to get what you pay for (a cheap belt is going to sound like shit), but in the $300+ range belt is going to sound better imho. I have listened to a totl vintage Yamaha DD with a v15 that sounded damn nice, but that was an expensive and complicated machine dedicated to music listening in DD's heyday.
-
Anyone looking for an 1800 mkII Technics. I have 1 in original box that is showroom looking with 681eee, and can thro in a spare nos stylus for the right price. Only thing that does not work is the armlift, works great in manual.
-
I lean toward the belt tables. ;D
-
After moving from my 1970's mid-fi Pioneer DD, to a Music Hall MMF-7, to a Sota Sapphire with mega-buck arm, to a Technics 1200 DD, to a old, refurbished Lenco on a 7 layer home made plinth.............. I have concluded the answer is neither ! - It's Rim Drive For Me ;D
-
I lean toward the belt tables. ;D
Somehow I'm not a bit surprised Tom. ::) You are after all, the Master of Repairing / Replacing Belts in CD Players...... ;D
----BILL(BB3)
-
I sort of figgered there had to be a rim drive fan or two in the forum! Most people seem to think belt or dd is all there is! ;D
-
I have both. I have a Pioneer PL-41 belt drive from that late sixties and two real nice Sony direct drives from the late 70's. The PS-X50 I have is fairly high end for its day. I like them both, but I really do appreciate the simplicity of an all manual belt drive.
-
What the heck is RIM Drive? Never heard of it.
I have heard many good things about the stability of Idler Wheel TT's. I have a very Old Thorens Idler Wheel model that is awaiting a tonearm. I really have to get it up and running.
Eric
-
Eric,
The Idler usually contacts the table on the outside edge (rim) underneath. Thorens, VPI, Garrard, benjamin miracord, lenco have all used
this method to varying degrees of success. Rim Drive is what us old guys call it.
-
Eric
Check out new version at this link.
http://www.vpiindustries.com/products_rim.htm (http://www.vpiindustries.com/products_rim.htm)
-
That's pretty cool. What's the advantage? Just another step towards complete motor isolation?
-
Older tables the idler was under and on the inside edge of the platter. Supposed to give more torque for faster start up, and stable speeds. This why the changers used them, a stack of records would still play at the correct speed. That VPI unit is much heavier duty than the old rim drives.
-
Confused... I'm a little confused :) Why didn't they just go DD? Wouldn't that give the best torque and start-up?
-
These predated DD. Later they figured out how to spin the platter by turning it into the rotor, therefore not requiring a mechanical connection from the platter to the motor, only electromagnetic. Another development that made dd possible was dc servo control motors. With an ac motor, you couldnot build 1 slow enough for dd, and required somekind of coupling to match motor speed to platter speed.
The new vpi "upgrade" adds a lot more inertia due to the size of the idler. Old tables had much smaller wheels.
I am digging pretty deep into the cobwebs of my mind, so do not treat this as gospel.
-
Also, if anyone wishes to chime in to correct or corroborate please feel free. :-[
Holy Cow, I did not know you could modify these posts. Now I feel like I should go back and fix all my typos!
...OK, I probably won't
-
right on... This is brand new to me..... How do those 80's commercials go?? Knowledge is Power!!
-
I have no clue, but would think that the rim drive would perform better than DD.
The flywheel disk is intentionally weighted to provide smooth consistent rotation.
With DD, I would imagine that slight voltage fluctuations would be easily noticeable
whereas the same fluctuations would be dampened by the flywheel.
That was my thoughts in regards to the TT weights as well. The weight helps
to make the platter behave like a flywheel which provides more consistent rotation.
What say you?
-
Quite discerning! Some people used to call the servo control sytems never right. Adding a feedback loop and speed sensing ckt means that the speed is constantly being adjusted!! New circuits and components allow DC power supplys to output quite steady DC despite AC input changes and some newer tables are dc but no servo with big heavy platters to maintain consistancy.
In the older highend TT the idler was small and platter heavy, just like belts to keep the speed constant using rotational inertia. All these tables (belt and rim) got a boost in performance when they started using hysteresis rather than induction motors. Hysteresis motors maintain speed unless the line frequency changes, which unlike voltage is rock steady.
-
My Pioneer PL-41 has a 4-pole hysteresis synchronous motor. Rock solid and steady, never misses a beat. I am in the process of restoring and modifying it as we speak. I will post pics when done.
-
Design me a TT in which the motor can overcome the centrifugal force of a silver dollar placed at the outer rim or the platter. I'll buy it. The point is there is no such thing as perfection in the TT world. The most balanced TT is not going to overcome a mishapen LP, a table .01 degree off balance or a magnetude 1.3 earthquake. The glory of turntables is their ability to be manipulated, recover, and change again without researching which diode, transistor, resistor, or capacitor is best suited for the task.
-
Sorry If I'm getting in the way; I cant help but join in the conversation
I just run the forum for Tom. I have no clue about any of this stuff really.
Maybe I should just STFU and admin the site. ;D
This is a pic of the last turntable I owned:
-
Admirable!!! Do you still have it? I want one of those for my son!
-
I wish.
If I did, I'd be rocking to the Chipmunks right about now!
-
LOL ;D ;D ;D
-
So finally someone in the 21 century chimes in. Thanks Master-Blaster!
You need to forgive us audio dinosaurs and all vinyl lovers!
I mostly agree with King-Edwin, a good TT is a good TT, and they all require some compromise from ideal!
And thanks to desperado915 , I forgot the most important word synchronous (though all hysteresis motors are synchronous, not all synchronous motor are hysteresis).
And finally, though I own at least a mile of vinyl (end to end) and I mostly Listen to CD, I will always own a TT.
And lastly, I guess the teacher in me was sprung loose for a minute. If you would like more details on motor construction PM to get my phone number and we can discuss it in detail.
-
I love the dialogue going on here. It is purely fascinating read these posts.
Like I said, I just cant help jumping into the conversation at the expense
of seeming like a total noob. Thanks for putting up with my stupid ass.
-
Master Blaster- Do NOT apologize!! That was hilarious!
-
No, master... it is soooo hard putting up with you;;;;; dumb ::)
-
Hah. Thanks guys :D