Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
General Banter => The Circular File => Topic started by: MasterBlaster on July 22, 2011, 12:24:21 AM
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$30 annually for a use permit to shoot on the PUBLIC range - really?
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=937842&mode=2 (http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=937842&mode=2)
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I have to pay for a permit to drive on public roads. ;D
If we would go back to taxing rich people like we should then we wouldn't need all these fees.
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The few "rich" as well as the majority of "well to do" folks that I do know personally either work or have worked like a dog to earn what they have. Taxing those who achieve simply because they achieve isn't the answer.
:o
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Evereyone needs to do their fair share. What we have now is the rich stealing from the poor.
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I have to pay for a permit to drive on public roads.
If we would go back to taxing rich people like we should then we wouldn't need all these fees.
you got the first part of your name right you just have to add the sisizm to it.
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Where is the fairness in taking wealth and assets off of a person who has worked hard and earned what they have so that they and their families may enjoy a brighter future and giving it to those who are not nearly as productive?
One would hope that those who are in a position to help the less fortunate would do so based upon the desire to help their fellow citizens. It's an issue of morality, not politics.
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wow, this thread has completely gone off the rails.
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I do that.
;D
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I agree w SD, the beauty of this country is that you can if you work hard enough and want it bad enough accumulate wealth and success. I find it hard to empathize to those who want to cast the rich as evil just because they are rich. That said, the tax system needs an overhaul. It is a complicated mess of laws that unfairly burdens some and not others, depending on your ability to pay tax attorneys and CPAs to help you game the rules. That is not right. Get a flat VAT tax or something similar so everyone pays.
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I agree with OBG.
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I haven't made enough cash to worry about tax brackets or a flat tax or any of that jazz...
...yet.
Remember Ross Perot's flat tax proposal in '92? I was only 12 years old, but I remember how much of a stir it created.
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I have to pay for a permit to drive on public roads.
If we would go back to taxing rich people like we should then we wouldn't need all these fees.
you got the first part of your name right you just have to add the sisizm to it.
Funny stuff. The fact is that the top tax rates are lower than they have been in over fifty years (and that isn't even counting loopholes). It is also a fact that our overall tax rate is the lowest of any industrialized country. It is also a fact that many "multi-national" corporations do business here and funnel their money overseas to avoid taxes. Finally, I'll note as one example that a couple years back GE made six billion dollars in profit and paid zero in taxes.
The problem isn't that I'm a Marxist (I'm not), the problem is that this country is in the throes of a fascist shift which most people can't even recognize.
(Should I still come to the next get together or do you all hate me now?)
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I find it hard to empathize to those who want to cast the rich as evil just because they are rich.
Please show me where I cast anyone as evil. Asking for fairness is not casting people as evil. If we are going for empty rhetoric, how's this...
You seem to be rich (granted, it is a matter of definition) and based on our brief encounter you seem like a really nice guy to me.
(BTW, you do seem like a nice guy, that part isn't rhetoric.)
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if you work hard enough and want it bad enough accumulate wealth and success
Look, I'm not rich compared to most here, but I am rich compared to my parents. I certainly have worked hard to get where I am today. I have nothing but admiration for those who work hard and play by the rules.
However, I also recognize that quotes like the one above fail to account for luck and ability (or lack thereof). I have a son who goes to the Day School at Children's Institute, and he will never have the ability to hold down a meaningful job. Should we just throw him and those like him into the gutter? I think that as a society we can do better.
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It is hard to fully describe my perspective here in a few characters, but after reading more I think I am closer to your point of view than I first thought. I am saying that the (1) it is a good thing that anyone [generally speaking] can achieve success here and (2) that the tax system appears to me to be broken - some pay little others pay a lot and man times there is no rhyme or reason other than some legislator created a crazy law that allows it and the house approved it.
I also believe that if we really are the economic powerhouse we claim to want to be (we are losing that title quickly to China and Brazil, etc.), we should be able to afford to have a safety net to take care of the those that cannot take care of themselves. It is sad that we can not afford to do that even with all the money we pump into healthcare every year. But that is easier said (or written here) than done - it is easy to start designing a fair safety net and end up creating an incentive for some people to become entitled and get lazy. But the pendulum could sure swing a bit more in that direction, which is the point I think you are making, or part of it anyway.
(and no disrespect intended, BTW, just having fun in the forum)
OBG
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I'm not going to pay the $30. I'm going to join a rifle club instead.
Great job PA Game Commission!
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OBG, I felt no disrespect from you what so ever. I hope that you weren't bothered by the tongue in cheek parts of my posts. I think that we should all be able to discuss these things as adults and that our increasing inability to do so is one of the main things that is "broken" about our system. I value your insights. You are obviously an intelligent and successful individual.
For the record, none of this thread rises to the level of "offensive" for me, but I will say that being called a Marxist (I think that is what he was trying to spell) simply for expressing an opinion to the left of John McCain is a good example of the kind of negative discourse that damages our civic unity.
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I believe that the framework for such a system is in place, Pepe. I also believe that what makes public assistance not work are those who mooch off of the system. Again, it comes back to loopholes and exceptions.
It's also interesting to note how my friends and I have become far more fiscally conservative as we've gone through college and are now starting to become invested in the future of this great nation.
Well Al, would you rather have political rants on your highjacked threads or SHEEVS?
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At least SHEEVS was funny!!! ;D
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And this crap isn't? :o :o
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political rants on your highjacked threads
I don't think this thread was hijacked at all. There is a political reason that fees are being introduced at public venues. I'll give you a hint, it is entirely predictable that retsalB retsaM would choose to join a private club rather than pay for a public one, one can hardly blame him. I certainly don't. Think about it.
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Oh, we did. Don't let Master Blaster think we didn't. :)
I think he just wanted someone to go shooting with. Instead, he got a treatise. :laugh:
Are you going to the meeting tomorrow, Mark?
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Tomorrow? I didn't realize there was one tomorrow. I'll be seeing Tedeschi/Trucks. Is the August one scheduled yet?
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I don't mind the dialogue. It has been entertaining. Thanks Elijah.
Imo, the discourse lies with those who think its the government's role to take care of them.
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Discourse might get bumpy if we drive much further on it.
Is there a meeting meeting tomorrow?
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Well Al, would you rather have political rants on your highjacked threads or SHEEVS?
...BTW...what happened to SHEEVS??? ???
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Tomorrow? I didn't realize there was one tomorrow. I'll be seeing Tedeschi/Trucks. Is the August one scheduled yet?
Me too!!
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Imo, the discourse lies with those who think its the government's role to take care of them.
I agree. Like companies who think that the government should built their business infrastructure, recruit and train their workforce and in return they pay no taxes for twenty years then suddenly move their business to Mexico. Those guys are leeches.
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Tomorrow? I didn't realize there was one tomorrow. I'll be seeing Tedeschi/Trucks. Is the August one scheduled yet?
Me too!!
You too "didn't realize there was one tomorrow" or you too "Tedeschi/Trucks"?
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As for the fee, it sucks but nothing in life is free. When the government offers something for "free", they stole the money from someone else in the form of a tax to pay for it.
...BTW...what happened to SHEEVS??? ???
SHEEVS's was was banned from the forum.
As for who pays what in federal income taxes, people who make less than $33,000 pay less than 2.7% of what is collected by the IRS. Don't take my word for it. I did a quick Goggle search and came up with hundreds of web sites that all say the same thing. 5% of the population pay over about 60% of the taxes collected by the IRS and the bottom 50% pay less than 3%.
Check out these sites. They all report the same information:
http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html (http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes (http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes)
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/whopaysmost.htm (http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/whopaysmost.htm)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/who-pays-taxes (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/who-pays-taxes)
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/how-much-americans-actually-pay-in-taxes/ (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/how-much-americans-actually-pay-in-taxes/)
These were the first ones that came up in my search in no particular order. And there are 109 million results to choose from.
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When the government offers something for "free", they stole the money from someone else in the form of a tax to pay for it.
So then, are you "stealing" your use of the highway system or your public education or your police protection or your...
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As for who pays what in federal income taxes, people who make less than $33,000 pay less than 2.7% of what is collected by the IRS. Don't take my word for it. I did a quick Goggle search and came up with hundreds of web sites that all say the same thing. 5% of the population pay over about 60% of the taxes collected by the IRS and the bottom 50% pay less than 3%.
That is because the top 5% of the population has 72% of the country's wealth. Yes, that is right. So your link does a wonderful job of showing how the deck is stacked in favor of the rich. For things to be fair, that 5% should be paying 12% more. But even that is an incomplete picture. See, we have been moving from a tax based system to a fee based system so that the rich are even less impacted. Take the drivers license example discussed earlier. Lets say a license costs $50 (I don't remember what it cost so I'm pulling a number out of the air for an example). That $50 would represent about three hours of productivity for me. For a guy on minimum wage that would be about six hours of productivity. For the very wealthy the fee represents seconds of their time. Fees are regressive, percentage based taxes are progressive. That is one reason things are moving to fees. The middle class is shrinking and the poor are getting screwed.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html (http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html)
This only represents individual wealth and taxes. It doesn't include corporate taxes (or lack thereof). See the GE example given earlier.
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Tomorrow? I didn't realize there was one tomorrow. I'll be seeing Tedeschi/Trucks. Is the August one scheduled yet?
Me too!!
You too "didn't realize there was one tomorrow" or you too "Tedeschi/Trucks"?
The T/T band at Hartwood Acres.
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I would look for that $30 fee to go up.
Using $$ is the newest way to control guns.
I see just this week where a city is going to start a high tax on each bullet.
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That is because the top 5% of the population has 72% of the country's wealth.
They have the wealth for a reason - They've earned it. Penalizing someone for their success is absolute rubbish. It's easy for one to say "tax the rich" if they're not in that class because it doesn't affect them.
Did you know that more than 75% of all multi-million dollar lottery winners go broke within 5 years? Why do you think that is?
Hmm lets see.... oh what's this? http://consumerist.com/2010/05/poor-people-spend-9-of-income-on-lottery-tickets.html (http://consumerist.com/2010/05/poor-people-spend-9-of-income-on-lottery-tickets.html) Seems quite foolish to spend 9% of your income on the lottery don't you think? Yet, they continue to make these same bad decisions even after they win until their millions dry up.
Poverty is a way of life for some. There is no outside cure for it. The drive to succeed must come from within ones self. It cannot be given away, it must be earned.
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They have the wealth for a reason - They've earned it. Penalizing someone for their success is absolute rubbish.
I'm not looking to penalize anyone. I don't see paying taxes as "penalty", I think it is part of the cost of society. Do not the rich make more use of the infrastructure than the poor? All I advocate is that they do their fair share. I'm not saying the should pay more, but they certainly shouldn't pay less.
As far as "they earned it" goes, some did, some didn't. I already said that I have nothing but respect for a man who works hard, plays by the rules and makes a success of himself. For every one of those there is an investment banker who made a fortune on selling bonds he knew were designed to fail because he also knew that the government would eventually mop up behind him. That is absolutely true.