Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => CARVER => Topic started by: BB3 on January 20, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
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What's Your Thoughts On Having The Carver TFM-25 Hooked Up To Your Polk Audio SDA's ? Did You Get To Do Any Serious Listening Yet With This Combination ?
I'm Dying To Know ;) ;D------BILL(BB3)
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I've only done about 2 hours of listening so far. I've got a full review coming but not until I get a chance to really crank it up.
So far I can say that the 25 brings the bass home a lot better than the Hafler, but I feel like it's a little less open. I noticed in a few songs I can hear background singers and instruments a lot 'bigger' with the hafler than the 25.
More to come.
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I'm sure you'll like the 25. I'm liking my 22 quite a bit. Going from a dh220 @ 115wpc to the 25 at 225 is quite a boost in power. I know those polks pretty well, and I know they love power. I grew up listening to a pair of sda 1s powered by a hafler dh500 (rated 255 wpc bench tested at 308) and they gobbled up the juice and asked for more. I for-see you picking up another 25 and running one per polk ;).
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Hmmmm, that's interesting Matt. That just goes to show that your Hafler is no slouch. ;)
I'd love to see you do what King-Edwin is suggesting(running 2 TFM-25's), but I don't believe that will be possible due to the lack of having bi-amp provisions on your particular SDA's. I could be wrong though. ???
Thank you for posting your thoughts on this matter, Matt.-------BILL(BB3)
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I'd love to see you do what King-Edwin is suggesting(running 2 TFM-25's), but I don't believe that will be possible due to the lack of having bi-amp provisions on your particular SDA's. I could be wrong though. ???
Even if there's no biamp capability, you could always just run the amps in mono for buku power :P
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Hmmmm, that's interesting Matt. That just goes to show that your Hafler is no slouch. ;)
I'd love to see you do what King-Edwin is suggesting(running 2 TFM-25's), but I don't believe that will be possible due to the lack of having bi-amp provisions on your particular SDA's. I could be wrong though. ???
Thank you for posting your thoughts on this matter, Matt.-------BILL(BB3)
Yeah a bi-amp isn't really possible with the 1Cs. I could do dual-mono as King-Edwin suggests, but I'd have to either buy or build an Isolation transformer SDA cable (forget the model name for them). I've got the right pin-blade SDA design to do it, I'd just need to go about the mod.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do right now. There are things that i really like about the 25, and things that I like more about the Hafler. Later tonight I'll post a full review.
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Ok. Time for my full review.
Let me start by saying that I'm really glad that I waited an extra night to post this, because my thoughts have swung a full 180 degrees thoughout this process.
The case for Hafler:
I've had the Hafler DH-220 for about 4 months now. It's a good little amp, rated at at 115 watts into 8ohms. The Hafler is capable of driving my 1Cs to pretty high volume levels, but doesn't bring a whole lot of bass to the table. It seems to image well, and has a pretty cleans sound. If I had to characterize it, I'd say that it's a little forward in the tweeter range, solid in the middle and a little light on bass.
My impressions of the TFM-25:
This amp can really bring the rain! I basically can't find the end of the volume dial on it, which is great but totally unnecessary. The 25 seems pretty clean also. It definately digs a lot deeper than the Hafler, which is something that I'm really looking for in a new amp. With the Carver, I 'feel' the music a lot more, even at .5watt on the meter!
On the flip side, I feel like the Carver is a lot more laid back on the high end... almost more-so than I'd like it to be. On some recordings I feel like I lose the vocals behind the rest of the music a bit.
The sound-stage with the Carver amp also isn't quite as wide. For this I kept going back to same track over and over again.
"Turn the Page" - Garage Inc. - Metallica
The intro begins with a guitar at stage center playing low, and is followed by another electric note played high and to the right.
With the Hafler amp, the second guitar is placed high and about a foot in front of the speaker. With the Carver it's still equally high but only as far right and forward as the speaker. However, in other recordings the stage has seemed quite wide.
I think the difference overall comes back to the presence of the high-notes. With the Hafler, the highs are much more forward than with the Carver and that manifests itself in the perception of depth and width in the soundstage at times.
I also noticed a few other sticking points about this Hafler amp and this Carver amp in particular. With the Hafler, I get an audible 'thump' when I turn on the unit, which is rather annoying. Also the power switch on the Hafler is backlit, but the light flickers constantly as the amp runs. I've looked at a lot of sources online that all say that it's basically normal for these amps to do that. There is a mod available to fix it.
With the Carver, I noticed that if I fire up the amp with the source and pre already going, I get a few seconds of really horrible distortion. The first time that this happened I thought I had something messed up in my hookups, but it happens everytime I start the Carver up from cold. I'm assuming that this is a sign of aging electronic components.
I also should mention that like every other normal MOSFET amp, you could cook an egg on the Hafler amp after about 15 minutes of music, whereas the Carver seems to stay cool no matter what I throw at it.
All-in-all, I like the TFM-25 amp. I think it's an improvement for the most part over my Hafler, although it does have its drawbacks as well.
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Wow Matt ! That is certainly a very good review and I appreciate you taking the time to do it.
Not telling you what to do of course Matt.......but I suggest that you fire up the Amps first before powering on anything else. ;) and then the Pre, and finally your Source. Let everything settle in for a few minutes and then "Pump Up The Jam". 8)
Happy Listening Matt.----------BILL
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Wow Matt ! That is certainly a very good review and I appreciate you taking the time to do it.
Not telling you what to do of course Matt.......but I suggest that you fire up the Amps first before powering on anything else. ;) and then the Pre, and finally your Source. Let everything settle in for a few minutes and then "Pump Up The Jam". 8)
Happy Listening Matt.----------BILL
Thanks Bill.
Normally I would always start up the amp first. However, in the testing environment I was switching components back and forth a lot so that wasn't always what happened.
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Nice review!
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I really like the TFM 25's. That said, you should see it Tom will let you try the M1.5t. I bet that amp will really make those speakers come alive.
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Next amp up for review. Carver M1.0T:
Tom was nice enough to let me steal an M1.0T for a few days to see what I though of it. I've only been listening to it for a few hours this evening, but so far I've only got one word to describe the 1.0T..... SMOOTH.
The 1.0T doesn't have the bass presence of the TFM-25 and still doesn't have the soundstage of the Hafler DH-220, but what it does have is just a silky smooth sound, warm and non-fatiguing all the way up and down the spectrum.
At first, I was unimpressed with this amp... coming off of listening to the TFM-25 all morning, going to the M1.0T was a bit of a downer. The amp just doesn't have the 'slam' that the 25 has, and so my immediate thoughts were that it's a bit boring. The more I'm listening to this amp though, the more I'm enjoying it.
I'll put up more thoughts as I listen some more.
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I'm liking the reviews.... There should be a "Paden's review corner" category. You want to do a review my JBL?
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I'm always afraid to write these reviews. I don't want to offend someone's favorite piece of equipment or something.
W/ that said, I'm all about hearing new stuff.
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Matt, I'm really loving your review. It's really good "stuff".
Not that I'm speaking for anyone else, but I don't think you could
ever offend anyone here. We're your friends.....and remember Matt
its what sounds good to YOU that matters most, NOT anyone else.
Now that being said, you are without a doubt doing the absolute
best thing possible by testing these different amps out, and really
kudos to Tom for allowing any of us here the opportunity to experiment
in such a way as your doing Matt.
Take Care Matt And Keep Up The Good Work. I'm Enjoying The Hell
Out If It.
-------------BILL(BB3)
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Hi Paden, Can you bi-amp your speakers?? Maybe, i'm not sure how it would be, you can use the tfm-25 on the woofers, and the 1.0t on the mids and tweets.. The best of both amps :o
Mike
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Thanks for the encouraging words Mike and Bill. I'll be sure to keep writing down my thoughts.
@ Mike, I can't bi-amp my speakers. They lack the cross-over design to allow that.
If I were able to bi-amp, I think that doing just as you have suggested wouldn't be a bad option.
Let me clarify though. The 1.0T is no slouch on bass. It's just not quite as dynamic as the TFM-25. If I hadn't heard the 25 just hours before the 1.0T, I may not have even felt it lacking. But coming directly off of the 25 to the 1.0T, it was apparent. That said, I like the overall presentation of the 1.0T better than the 25. I feel like it's a little more warm sounding.. .not as dynamic, but a smoother presentation. I listened to the 1.0T for hours last night and never got tired of it.
Also, as far as the bass goes. The 1.0T has PLENTY of power, so a little tweak of the EQ and you get the bass presense back (I know, EQ is like blasphemy for HiFi).
I like the 1.0T a lot, and I don't think that it'll be going back to Tom's shop anytime soon.
Of course, that doesn't mean that the 1.0T is necessarily superior to the TFM-25. It just means that I think it works better in my system as it's currently configured.
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Keep the info coming...I think we all enjoy your opinions. ;)
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Hey Paden, you may have just described the difference between tube and solid state... My opinion is the 1.0T really sounds tube like, and the tfm-25 sounds solid state.. The bigest diff. being solid state has the low end slam!! But IMO the tube sound has the better mid bass on up :o
I really liked the 1.0T and REALLY regret no longer having one. :( :( :( :(
Also if you can get a hold of one I really liked the TFM-42 IMO the best sounding Carver amp I ever had..
And I will get another when the opportunity(sp?) arises.
Good job on the reviews :D
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Matt,
Great news about your decision on the Carver Amp. You're process through all of it was certainly the right way.
I'm real happy for you Matt. Happy Listening Sir........
-----BILL(BB3)
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Trouble in paradise.
Well it looks like I havent found the amp of my dreams with the m1.0T :( At least not with this particular one.
I noticed today that only one of my speakers was giving me much 'SDA Magic'. It seemed like the SDA was working on the right channel but not the left. Thinking that this was odd, I looked into it a good bit.
It turns out that there were two versions of the m1.0t amp. The one I have is not common ground... well... sort of. It was 'inverting'... meaning that the hot terminal on one speaker is connected to the ground terminal of the other. If your m1.0T does not have a 'mono' switch on the back, it is inverting. This one just happens to be one of those, which means that while it sounds good... it's not giving me the full SDA affect. I've wondered about this on a few recordings up to now... but not knowing where to place the blame I assumed it was in the recordings.
SOOOOOOO my search continues. luckly my 1Cs are the pin-blade design, so using non-common ground won't harm anything.... it just wont give me as much SDA affect. (which is exactly what i'm noticing on the inverting channel).
I'm not sure what I want to look at next. I sort of want to try a TFM-35x.
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OH SHOOT Matt. I'm Sorry, I've Should Known That About That Amp And Warned You About It. Damn It !
Whether That 35x Will Get The Job Remains To Be Seen Of Course. I Would Be A Little Surprised If You End Up Liking It Better Than A 25.
Remember Though Matt And No Arguments Here, Its What Sounds Good To You That Matters.
Again I Apologize For Not Recognizing The Above Amp Situation Sooner.
Sincerely, Bill
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No worries bill.
I'm just glad that I have the more forgiving generation of SDAs.... if these had been SDA1's or 1a's, I'd have just toasted a xover :o
We'll see what happens. I really did like the 25 also. No bad choices here.
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Ok so I took the m1.0T back over to Tom's place, and came home with a TFM-35x to try. I've been really busy this week, so I haven't had much time to listen at all. Buuuut so far I'm fairly impressed with the 35!
I feel like the 35 is very much between the 1.0 and the TFM-25 in sound. It's not as smooth as the 1.0T, but it has more control and more punchyness.... however, it's not as punchy and dynamic as the TFM-25.
On the flip side, I feel like the TFM-35x is a little rolled off on the edges. Cymbols don't have that crisp sound as much as I'd like... On certain recordings, I feel like the sound can be a bit 'muddy' (this is the first time that I've really understood what that term means in audio lingo). But then again on other recordings I don't notice it.
The jury's still out on this one. I have to listen more.
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Hey Paden, I am sure to piss someone off, but, maybe try something other then Carver 8) 8) 8)
Tommy has, or had a nice Nakamichi Stasis PA-5 amp designed by Nelson Pass, sounded pretty darn good. I know it is not a Carver, but might be just the sound you are looking for. Also he may have some Mosfet amps, my personal favorite. I never heard a mosfet amp that I didn't like. :o
Mike
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I'm really between ideas right now. I'm actually thinking about saving some money and taking the plunge on a Dynaco ST-70.... But I'm worried that it won't have the power that I need for such a large speaker. Of course that's a huge departure from the direction that I was heading a few short weeks ago also.
Tom, you're the only guy I know with an ST-70. What do you think about it and particularly about having it pared with a speaker as large as the 1C?
As far as other SS gear goes, I'm not 'stuck' on Carver, but it's a good place to start because of the incredible bang for your buck. None of the amps that I've tried so far have been sub-par. Each has its own sonic characteristic for sure but none are undesirable. The Nakamichi is interesting. The only Nak gear I've ever heard was a CD changer.
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I was kind of in the same boat. I have a M-500 but I prefer my Crown over it for the speakers I'm currently using.
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Ok so I took the m1.0T back over to Tom's place, and came home with a TFM-35x to try. I've been really busy this week, so I haven't had much time to listen at all. Buuuut so far I'm fairly impressed with the 35!
I feel like the 35 is very much between the 1.0 and the TFM-25 in sound. It's not as smooth as the 1.0T, but it has more control and more punchyness.... however, it's not as punchy and dynamic as the TFM-25.
On the flip side, I feel like the TFM-35x is a little rolled off on the edges. Cymbols don't have that crisp sound as much as I'd like... On certain recordings, I feel like the sound can be a bit 'muddy' (this is the first time that I've really understood what that term means in audio lingo). But then again on other recordings I don't notice it.
The jury's still out on this one. I have to listen more.
Matt, I might be onto something here for you......do me a favor and with either the 1.0T, the 25,or even with the 35x, ask Tom to borrow one of those Denon CD Players that he has now in stock and hook that combination up for me.
I've got a feeling about something that I'm not going to disclose to you yet Matt, just do me and you this favor and let me know your findings please.
I'm not kidding Matt, I really think I'm onto something here for you and your overall listening pleasure.
Please give the above combination a try with music that you are very familiar with.
------Sincerely, BILL(BB3)
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Well the 1.0T is out for sure because of the non-common ground issue.
As far as changing the CD player goes, I get where you're going. Synergy is important in a system, and too many 'warm' components can muddy the sound overall. I could be hearing some of the 'rolled off' affect coming from my Jolida player. It is noted to be more of a 'warm' player than a 'detailed' player, as are the Carver amps. So I could have a synergy issue.
However, I really like my Jolida player, so I'd rather find an amp that plays well with it than change my CDP to match the amp.
Like I said. NONE of these are bad options. If I had to rank them, I'd rank them so far in this order:
M1.0T (even though I can't use it)
TFM-25
Hafler DH220
TFM-35x
But the truth is I like them all. I just need to decide what direction that I want to go in.
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I would try the Nakamichi, one of the Technics, Philips, and if you have the money the big Adcom before you land on one. The big Adcom looks and sounds really nice, but it's pricey.
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paden501 - I know it is a tough decision. I don't blame you for not wanting to change your CDP. The Jolida is a nice unit. As far as you SDA's, I'm running my 1C's with a TFM-55. Seems to give the deep end you like, and the highs aren't too bad. Of course you go to Tom's shop and you have a plethera of equipment to sample from. I think the 55 does a good job, but mostly because it has the headroom to push your speakers to their limits. And not bat an eyelash doing it!!! 8)
You may want to try that Sound Valves tube set up Tom has in the shop. That seemed to be quite a nice smooth sounding unit, and it packed a pretty good punch!
Keep playing. You are lucky enough to be close to the shop to audition the stuff. I, on the other hand, am too far away to have that luxury.
Neil
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Yeah Tom's setup is what got me thinking about the ST-70. His Sound Valves VTA-70 is basically a driver-board modded ST-70 +- a few other mods.
I was extremely impressed at how that little tube amp of his handles those Energy speakers.
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Yeah, that is what I heard. He had the Mirage's hooked up when I heard them, and I have to say, I was pretty impressed. Knowing Tom and the time it took him to get the Energy's back to form, I'm sure he'll have them around the shop for a while, so it will only be a matter of time before I get to hear them.
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Neil, next time you are down, they will be back in service. I am gonna give the para digms another week or two of abuse. You will like the sound they spew.
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Yeah, the para digm's weren't bad. The velodyne subs made them sound even better. If I have a bigger car next time, maybe I'll bring down my digm's (floor standers) to compare.
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Neil, come down in the spring/summer. We'll have a blast!
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Most likely it will be in April sometime. Maybe sneak another visit in March, but we'll have to see how busy it gets. I would come down once a month if I could ;D ;D ;D
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The warmer the better... to smoke cigars. ;D
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You betcha' ;D
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Well the 1.0T is out for sure because of the non-common ground issue.
As far as changing the CD player goes, I get where you're going. Synergy is important in a system, and too many 'warm' components can muddy the sound overall. I could be hearing some of the 'rolled off' affect coming from my Jolida player. It is noted to be more of a 'warm' player than a 'detailed' player, as are the Carver amps. So I could have a synergy issue.
However, I really like my Jolida player, so I'd rather find an amp that plays well with it than change my CDP to match the amp.
Like I said. NONE of these are bad options. If I had to rank them, I'd rank them so far in this order:
M1.0T (even though I can't use it)
TFM-25
Hafler DH220
TFM-35x
But the truth is I like them all. I just need to decide what direction that I want to go in.
Matt, that is exactly what I was getting at and I certainly wouldn't want to see you get rid of that Jolida player...... We both know that it is an excellent player. However, what harm would there be in owning another type of CD Player for maybe different types of music listening ?
You being a friend Matt, you do know that I would never tell what to do, right ? If I were you though, I would have Tom give you a package deal on the TFM-25 and that Denon DCD-1520 or 1610 of his and call it a day. I think that combination, along with your existing components will just flat out rule....... 8) :o
All The Best Matt.------BILL(BB3)
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Bill I don't doubt that you've got my best interests at heart here. I do consider you a friend and I trust your judgement and experience on these matters. I don't want you to think that I'm blowing off your suggestions or anything. With that said, I really do want to try a tube amp in my system before I decide what to do with all of this. I've always been intrigued by tubes and I feel like I owe it to myself to see what a decent tube amp sounds like. I just need to bide my time until I can get ahold of one to audition.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
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^^^^^^^^
Anytime Matt And I Thank You Sir For The Kind Remarks. Very Much Appreciated Matt. ;)
Please Be Rest Assured That I Will Never Ever Feel That You Are "Blowing Me Off" Matt. I'm Just Not Made That Way In Case You Didn't Already Know. ;D
You Know Something Else ? I Want To Apologize To You Matt For Maybe Going Off On Tangents With All Of This. I Just Want To See Not Only You, But Everyone Else For That Matter To Be Able To Get What They Want, And Most Importantly What Is Going To Make You / Them The Absolute Happiest.
Soooo, If It's Tubes That You Want, Then By All Means Please Do. You Know That's What I Want For You First And Foremost. :) Because It's What You Want, Period.
I'm Sorry But That's Just My Thought Process Matt.
Sincerely, BILL(BB3)
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Well I finally made a decision on which amp I'm sticking with:
And the winner is......
A TFM-24!
All in all, I probably liked the m1.0T the best, but since I can't really use it with my SDA's it's pretty-much out. The TFM-25 was my next choice, however it wouldn't fit behind the glass in my entertainment unit because the meter dimmer pot sticks out too far.
So I went with a TFM-24, which is the same exact amp but without the meters, so it fits nicely in my setup.
Thanks for the help everybody!
And of course thanks again for the great service Tom!
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;D
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Awesome News Matt. 8) You Know I Don't Need To Tell You How Happy I Am For You.... :D :D
Happy Listening Matt............BILL(BB3)
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Nice choice Matt. I bet it sounds fantastic!!
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Thanks guys.
I haven't had much chance to listen, but what I have heard has been GREAT!... I really am very happy with the whole experience.
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How are things going with your system, Matt ? I hope that you are enjoying the heck out of it.
------BILL(BB3)
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Things are great Bill. I've been away from the site a bit lately just because my work has kept me very busy. I'm going out of town soon for a month or so and getting ready for that has been a real chore.
When I do have time to listen though, it has been excellent. Thanks for asking.
How is your entertainment room coming along?
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Good to hear from you Matt, I'm glad that you responded.
I hear you about the whole staying busy at work thing. Same here partner, but that's a good thing now, isn't it Matt ?
I'm glad that you are happy with your system Matt. I'm about to pull the trigger on the black wood floor for the room as well as various other needed items.
To say that I'm excited about all of the above Matt would be an understatement, but almost to busy to think about it and take it all in. It's really been that crazy for me at work.
Anyways, take care of yourself Matt and I'll keep you posted on how things progress.
----BILL