Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => List your system => Topic started by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on June 28, 2014, 10:33:36 PM
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Too tired to unbox them tonight, but this should whet the appetite...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/BoxesSm_zpsa4772645.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/BoxesSm_zpsa4772645.jpg.html)
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Tease me! >:D
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I'm listening now. First I did side two of Abbey Road and now I am playing "Voyageur" by Kathleen Edwards.
So far, my reaction is mixed. I don't love them the way I do the LaScalas that they share so many components with. There are things that already I can see they do amazingly well, and there are things I already don't like. They are an improvement over my Technics SB-L200s that I was quite happy with, but they aren't the jaw dropping improvement I had expected them to be.
Of course, given the story that they have sat in a box for 30 years (and I believe that story to be true), I want to give them some time to brake in before I reach any hard conclusions. I also think they might benefit from a recap. These are the caps I had planned. Opinions?
One of these for the highs... http://www.parts-express.com/audyn-cap-q4-33uf-400v-mkp-metalized-polypropylene-foil-crossover-capacitor--027-121 (http://www.parts-express.com/audyn-cap-q4-33uf-400v-mkp-metalized-polypropylene-foil-crossover-capacitor--027-121)
Two of these for the mids... http://www.parts-express.com/solen-20uf-400v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-534 (http://www.parts-express.com/solen-20uf-400v-polypropylene-capacitor--027-534)
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Something doesn't seem right. Should be smaller cap for tweeter. Do you have the xover schematic?
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Ron, what an opportune time for my favorite speaker guru to show up. I would certainly value any input you can give.
I don't have a schematic, but I took pics while I was getting the values last night. I could have it backwards as far as mid and high caps go. Would that make sense?
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/xover-board1_zps7c03856e.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/xover-board1_zps7c03856e.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/xover-board2_zps9fe1e8c7.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/xover-board2_zps9fe1e8c7.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/xover-board3_zpsed445e5e.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/xover-board3_zpsed445e5e.jpg.html)
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BTW, the link to those Solens says "20uF", but they are 2.0uF caps. The decimal point would probably screw up the url.
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BTW, my wife likes the look and the sound better than the Technics. That is a win for sure.
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Certain spots of GnR "Appetite" sounded very shrill. I thought the speakers didn't like harsh sounding music. However, my daughter just put on her new David Guetta album and though I was expecting the worst, it sounds really good. Now I am thinking perhaps these speakers are just more revealing of a bad pressing than I am used to.
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(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Right3_zps5f27ef55.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Right3_zps5f27ef55.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Right1_zpsfff71333.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Right1_zpsfff71333.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Right2_zpsb405816e.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Right2_zpsb405816e.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Left1_zps0580e6c4.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Left1_zps0580e6c4.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Left2_zps0d9ad800.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Left2_zps0d9ad800.jpg.html)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/Heresy-Nude_zps1b931b10.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/Heresy-Nude_zps1b931b10.jpg.html)
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The bass is better than I was lead to believe on these. Sure, there is no deep bass, but I knew that going in. However, the bass that is there is very musical sounding. Listening to disco era Bee Gees right now (my wife is a fan), the kick on "Stayin' Alive" sure doesn't punch you in the chest like it's supposed to, but it sounds very convincing never the less. I suspect that running a sub at 80 down with these would give a great result.
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Very nice looking cabinets! Congrats on your new speakers!
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You can tell that they are shipped "raw" and left to the owner to finish. I would have masked off the baffle before I urethaned. I am thrilled that they are in such excellent condition, though.
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Very nice looking Heresys!
Here's a good post on DIYAudio regarding modifying the E2 crossovers, if you're interested:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/245308-amp-klipsch-heresy.html#post3691824 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/245308-amp-klipsch-heresy.html#post3691824)
If you'd like me to stop over with any of my tube amps, let me know!
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I wasn't too impressed with the Heresy, but I only gave them a chance on about 3 songs.
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I wasn't too impressed with the Heresy, but I only gave them a chance on about 3 songs.
I'm waiting for you to send me a bill for storing them this long! ;D
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Very nice looking Heresys!
Here's a good post on DIYAudio regarding modifying the E2 crossovers, if you're interested:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/245308-amp-klipsch-heresy.html#post3691824 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/245308-amp-klipsch-heresy.html#post3691824)
If you'd like me to stop over with any of my tube amps, let me know!
From that thread...
The mid and high section are at least +8db over the woofer section : that's what I measured on 2 pairs of Heresy 1 of the early 80's (both fitted with the k-77, k-53 and k-22 speakers, and E2 crossover).
Here is the mod, which introduces resonances damping of the mid / high / transformer horn sections, giving a quasi-linear frequency response, according to the measurements I have made on MLS signals :
Their "solution" is to pad them down 8db? Seems to me that one of their great values with tube amps is their high sensitivity. They just took a 96 db speaker and turned it into an 88 db model. My solution with the Marantz 2230 I am playing them on now is to hit the loudness button. They sound quite nice this way. I know, it's not an "audiophile approved" solution, but it sounds really great to me. Played flat with the Marantz, they demonstrate amazing clarity but lack linearity. With the bass boost, they have both. They are especially amazing in the "sweet spot". Lots of the sound wasn't coming from the speakers. Some of it was in other parts of the room and some was right in the middle of my head. That's what I love about horns. So I have to use some eq (the loudness button) to make them sound like I want them to. I'm okay with that.
I suspect (as you said IIRC and I have read from others) that a 6V6 amp is voiced with a bass emphasis, and these should pair well with one. When my SC is done, I look forward to trying it with them. In the meantime, this is working for me.
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Ron, that link gives the schematic for the xover if it helps you at all.
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Well, L-Padding would be a fix to the bass deficiency! :) It's a compromise, for sure. One that, as you correctly say, would ruin the low powered tube magic of the Klipsch Heresy.
I prefer the 6V6 amp with the Heresy I's because the overall tone of the 6V6 seems to play to the Heresys strength; that golden midrange. The 6V6 amp doesn't have the aggressive highs and punchy bass of the EL84 Maggotbox in stock or semi-stock configuration.
Subjectively, I tend to take the "appreciate it for what it is" approach to gear as of late so long as all components are performing up to par. I accept what the Heresys don't do well; the Heresys strengths go far above and beyond making up for the lack of bass output. While the EL84 amp may be more balanced overall, that balance doesn't create the same synergy with the Heresys as the 6V6 amp.
I'd be more than happy to bring both amps over along with an A/B selector to illustrate my point. Then again, your ears may completely disagree with mine. :)
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I'm planning to do some A/B-ing with the Leak (EL84) and the Stromberg (6V6) as soon as I have the Stromberg up and running. I figure the "winner" will get paired with the Heresys and the "loser" will have to settle for the University coax in the barzilay cabinets that Scott gave me. I also need to find another pre for the Carver to duke it out with (I'm not sold on the Leak Point One) and another sub to go head to head with the Velodyne that Jim gave me.
With Jerome in the house, I wouldn't dream of having you bring tube amps over. I can't have you risk it, and I am going to have to be very creative in how I set mine up. If he smashed a vintage Mullard I might cry!
8W, did you recap your Heresys? If so, did you find significant benefit? What's your opinion of the caps I linked above? They seemed to me to be best "bang for your buck". I didn't want to go $50 each boutique caps, but I didn't want to go generic either.
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I haven't gotten to the Heresys yet. They need a recone (cosmetic) and a recap. Also, the cabinets need refinished. I'll probably be getting to them around the end of July.
For what it's worth, Rural Tom bought the recap kit for his Fortes from Crites. We recapped them and found no difference.
As far as which caps to get - I think any good cap will suffice. Capacitance is capacitance. They either do their job or they don't. In terms of sound quality - If you ask 15 different people, you'll wind up with 15 different answers. The theorists and geeks will tell you that capacitors of varying construction will behave the same so long as they have the same parameters. Audiophool types will tell you that PIO caps or some sort of magic big dollar caps make all the difference the world. You are best off here to do some digging around on your own and see where the truth actually lies.
For what it's worth, when I do get around to mine, I'll be using poly film caps similar to what you plan on going with.
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Nice looking Heresys, STaL! They certainly look like they've been stowed away for a long time.
I found mine took at little getting used to... the right pairing of amp and room, in my case. They do seem to sound better/best with 6V6s or SS amps that run towards the darker side. They sound rather nice now in a smaller room, right up in the corners with an older Nak receiver.
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As far as which caps to get - I think any good cap will suffice. Capacitance is capacitance. They either do their job or they don't.
"If you can't measure a difference, there is no difference"
Glad to see common sense proliferating into the hifi world.
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Common sense in the marketplace would be a rare thing.
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Jentzen makes some very nice caps for the money. I think they are the house brand for Parts Express
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I thought Dayton was the house brand for PE.
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BTW, I was so busy with listening impressions that I didn't tell the story of finding these. Since I was headed to Reading this past Saturday, I had been watching their CL. I found the ad, with Klipsch mis-spelled and no pictures. I suspect this slowed down some prospectors and people who use third party search engines.
So I called him and he sent pics to my phone. He said he had only one other response, a guy from Philly who couldn't make it out until Saturday morning. He said that the first person to show up with the $250 was going home with them. Well, I knew that wouldn't be me, so I called my brother in Williamsport. He agreed to drive to Sunbury (IIRC) about 45 mins each way to meet the guy.
This is where the story gets a bit interesting. Seems this guy was selling them for an eccentric uncle. When ever the nephew (the seller) has a birthday or goes on vacation, the uncle gives him something of value from his storage and has him research price. Then the uncle picks out an arbitrary price and tells the nephew that is what he has to sell them for. The reason he had to have them gone by Saturday morning is because he and the wife needed casino money for Jersey.
So I asked the seller after hearing this story if there was any more audio gear. He said that there is lots of different things and he really had no idea what all was there, but he had sold art and furniture before selling these speakers. I of course told him that if he wanted to save the hassle of running CL ads and deal with a known buyer to save my number. He said he would and seemed sincere. After all, he is working from a set price via his uncle and knows that this transaction went smoothly.
I wonder if this contact will yield any other goodies?
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Those are some gorgeous cabinets, and as you said if it sounds good to you the way you play it then why mess with anything. Recap them and enjoy them on the system you choose to pair them with.
Remember you are the one that needs to be happy with it, no one else.
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Remember you are the one that needs to be happy with it, no one else.
True that, and I am getting happier the longer they play. I do think they were loosening up for the first couple hours especially.
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I thought Dayton was the house brand for PE.
You are correct! I am having mind farts today! Mondays sheez! Daytons or Jantzens are good value caps.
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STaL
I think any any decent quality polypropylene will be fine. I would also replace the dual wound iron core choke with 2 air cores. I can measure the values if you bring it over.
Ron
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STaL
I would also replace the dual wound iron core choke with 2 air cores. I can measure the values if you bring it over.
Ron
Do they go bad or are you just thinking there will be a sonic improvement?
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There's some theoretical improvement due to saturation of the iron core, although it would probably be prohibitively expensive to go from the iron core to an air core with the same values. You may actually have to add in series resistance to match the dcr in those iron cores from an air core. I'm going to guess you're looking in the $25-40 range for each. If both of the ones you have measure well, then I wouldn't bother, but that's your call. I see no reason they shouldn't still be to spec.
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That's actually what I am thinking as well, but I am interested in Ron's opinion as he has the best sounding speakers I have heard.
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Two things:
1) there will usually be a lower DCR in an iron core as opposed to air core as there is more wire in an air core.
2) The reason I'm suggesting 2 separate inductors is that there will be serious crosstalk/distortion between the two coils sharing the same iron core.
Make that three things.......
3) I doubt the inductors will be very expensive as they should be fairly low inductance. They need to be measured to be sure.
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They are 2.5mh from what I can find (double check the actual measurements if you plan on going forward though), which puts you here: http://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=2.5mh&sitesearch=true (http://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=2.5mh&sitesearch=true) (schematic: http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af174/jeffhoak/Projects/TypeE.jpg (http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af174/jeffhoak/Projects/TypeE.jpg) )
Here's a fun forum discussion on the upgrades: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/29829-inductor-upgrade-for-heresy-12-ga-vs-14-ga-wire/ (https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/29829-inductor-upgrade-for-heresy-12-ga-vs-14-ga-wire/)
I'd probably not bother, the low-end on the heresys isn't worth saving imo, I'd probably go with putting that money towards a nice subwoofer.
(Might I suggest: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-10-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7091 (http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-10-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7091) ) (I know someone selling a nice amp for it too. ;) )
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I'm not talking about the 2.5mH in the woofer circuit. I'm talking about the other dual coil/single core inductors in the mid/tweeter circuit.
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Ohh I've gotcha. My bad!
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Very nice speakers. I've only heard them a few times over the years....if I recall they did sound very nice. They were paired up with a diy SE
tube amp. It was an el84 running class A. Low power but very nice sounding.
As far as recapping and swapping inductors....well, yes that's a mixed bag. If you just refresh the components with new versions you stay true to the original voicing of the speakers. If you change air core inductors for iron core inductors your DCR will change. If you swap electrolytic
with film caps your ESR will change. Both DCR and ESR are very measurable. Changing either may alter the original design goals.
This is not voodoo...it can be measured and can have an affect....maybe for the better. I swapped electrolytic in my Advents for film
caps (Janzens) definitely for the worse. if the highs and mids are too hot an L-pad can help. If will also dampen the voice coil of each driver.
Just some food for thought.
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I appreciate your thoughts, at. I will say that one of the really great things about PWK's... ugh... frugality is that since he used terminal strips rather than PCB's, it should be pretty easy to try things and have them be totally reversible if I'm not happy. Given that, I am inclined toward inexpensive experimentation.
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All this talk of recapping made me go back and look at my Hereseys. These are a very odd combination of components. I notice that the woofer (K-22) and the tweeter (K-77) are the ones listed by Klipsch as being in the original Heresy. But my mid (K-53) and xover (E-2) are the ones listed as being in the Heresy II.
Is this unusual? Did they likely come from the era where the design was being changed? Might te previous owner swapped something (it sure doesn't look like it)?
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Check the serial numbers and date yours appropriately.
There was a transition period where E2's went into HI's. It's not unheard of.
Aren't yours the HBR?
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Yep, the HBR. Pics on page one of this thread.
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It's not uncommon for the HBR line to have E2 XOs and K22 / K53 / K77 drivers.
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My Heresys are HBRs with the E-2 XO as well.
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Well, how are you making out with your Hereseys? Those are gorgeous cabinets and that's the way I like to see them. I had a lot of fun with my Hereseys. I would second the suggestion of not worrying about fooling with the crossovers and add a subwoofer. I have a Rythmik http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15.html (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15.html) that I used to fill in the low end. It was a really sweet setup. That way you can enjoy the tube sound a nice EL84 amp will provide to the Hereseys and still get the lows.
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I'm actually going to recap this weekend. I already have the caps.
I had some high end crackle at high volume, so this isn't just an esoteric recap, one seems to be going bad. At least I hope it was the cap and not the driver.
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Well, a month ago I said that I was going to recap them that weekend. I just finished.
I am listening to the recapped Hereseys. I think I hear a bit more articulation, but that could just be my mind playing tricks on me. I will know for sure when I wind them up and see if there is any breakup, but that won't be happening any time soon. BTW, scorpio, I also put new Velcro on the top of that one grill before I returned them to their place of honor.
They will live in the place of honor at least until I get through my extensive resto-mod of the JBLs. I am surprised at how similar the Hereseys and the L-100s are. Both have one glaring, offensive peak but sound great otherwise. The Klipsch just peak about an octave lower than the JBLs. I though about padding the mid on the Hereseys, but I don't want to do any mods that are irreversible since they are such classic speakers. If they were ported, I'd run a pad out the port. I suppose I could cut new back panels and mount L-Pads there. Maybe someday.
I like both sets a lot, but prefer the (again, anything but flat) bass of the JBLs. My wife strongly prefers the Hereseys. So now I have two sets of speakers I really enjoy after not liking so many KLH, Advent, BA etc.. My Grados see less action than they used to, though you still can't beat 'em for late night listening.
Now to see what I think about capacitor break in time.
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Good to hear you got em back up and running. When you say pad the mids, are you talking about crossing them over a bit lower?
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No, I'm talking about reducing their output a bit relative to the woofer and tweeter. Some speakers have L-Pads built in, which is basically a variable resistor wired in such a way so that it doesn't change the impedance that the xover network "sees" from the driver. I would either add an l-pad or use resistors to pad down the output.
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Hi Mark.
Glad your recap worked out great. In regards to an L-pad Vs resistors: Would you use resistors as a voltage divider or series resistor?
If anyone else has a hot driver they wish to tame I would probably use an L pad. Adding series resistors will change the overall Z the crossover sees and change the crossover point. Most L pads are 8 ohms. If the driver is an 4 ohm unit just use a stereo L pad and connect the segments in parallel. Once you determine the setting you like you could measure the L pad values and replace the L pad with resistors but as a voltage divider setup. I have plans to rebuild my NLA Advents and plan on using L pads and just leaving them there.
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An outboard EQ might also work. This approach will maintain the original design of the speakers. The equalizer need not be capable of full range 1/3 octave adjustments. Just find one with frequency centers matching your problem area and play with the adjustments until you like the sound.
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When you use resistors to pad, you have to use series/parallel so that you end up with the same impedance as you started. Treat the resistor like another driver.
Example: to pad down a hot driver by 6db, you have to put a 4 ohm resistor in line to the positive terminal (series). But if you only do that, you change the impedance of that 8 ohm driver to somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 ohms. So you also add another 8 ohm resistor parallel to the driver. 8 and 8 parallel gives 4 ohms. 4 and 4 series gives 8 ohms. (Edited because I pulled a boner on the math.)
There is a neat little calculator on this page. I've used it many times already in the month since I became aware of it.
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/ (http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/)
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If I were to use an EQ to correct a peak in a speaker, I would use a parametric with a sweepable "Q". However, the tinkerer in me wants to come up with a hard solution rather than a soft one.
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If I were to use an EQ to correct a peak in a speaker, I would use a parametric with a sweepable "Q". However, the tinkerer in me wants to come up with a hard solution rather than a soft one.
....notch filter. Hard enough ??? >:D ???
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What I meant was hardware, not software (or in this case, signal processing).