Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => TUBES TUBES TUBES => Topic started by: Slim-Shaddy on December 10, 2009, 02:55:35 PM
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Anyone ever use a tube buffer? What was your experience like? For a little over $100 would I really be getting a true "tube" sound? Here's an epinions review I just read...
http://www1.epinions.com/content_312424107652 (http://www1.epinions.com/content_312424107652)
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That is pretty interesting. Though Bob Carver came up with a really cheep way to make any SS amp sound tubish. Put a 1.5 ohm 50w resister in your speaker cable. Digikey has them.
Here is a cool thread on the Carver Forum about it.
http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10867 (http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10867)
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I use one between my pre-amp and amp. It definitely makes a difference. You could only buy them in Canada because of the agreement Grant Fidelity had with Yaqin not to sell them in the USA. Grant was slapping a new faceplate on them and selling them for 2.5x more. I bought mine about a year ago from our neighbors to the north. Best $100 I ever spent. I replaced the tubes with GE's and added a better power cord, this made a large improvement.
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Look for a Musical Fidelity X-10D. I have had several over the years and like them very much.
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The resistor idea is a good one. I'll probably do that just to play around and then down the road I'll pick up the buffer and see if I notice a difference. i can always sell the buffer if it's not worth it ;).
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If you decide to get the resistors, Order 10 to get the price break and I will take what you don't want. :D
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The resistor idea is a good one. I'll probably do that just to play around and then down the road I'll pick up the buffer and see if I notice a difference. i can always sell the buffer if it's not worth it ;).
Get em both!!! That way you can keep what ya like!!! 8)
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Look for a Musical Fidelity X-10D. I have had several over the years and like them very much.
Yup! I had one of those also. It helped take the edge off some of my CDs. Nothing beats a good tube pre amp. That's where you eventually want to go.
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I run a Yaqin tube buffer along with a DAC in line with my CDP. I didn't really like it as much until I upgraded the stock Chinese tubes to some NOS Siemens. Love it now.
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I run a Yaqin tube buffer along with a DAC in line with my CDP. I didn't really like it as much until I upgraded the stock Chinese tubes to some NOS Siemens. Love it now.
Did the same thing. Upgraded the power cord too. That also made a big difference.
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"THE POWER CORD" I would like someone to show me on an oscilloscope how a power cord will make something sound better.
114v-130v ac 60hz is just that. a piece of wire will not make the piece of equipment sound any different unless, unless the cord was very under sized to begin with. OHMS LAW that math does not lie.
N.E.P and UNITEL spent millions of dollars to prove this whole wire theory wrong to the "IT WILL SOUND BETTER" people.And these people ars ee's that do this for a living.And that also goes for speaker wire.Multi million dollar live video and audio trucks just use regular old belden 16ga speaker wire and what ever power cord is acceptable for amp draw on the really expensive equipment.
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The Yaqin factory power cord is junk which is a shame since the build quality of the buffer itself is surprisingly beefy. Very thin, I wouldn't trust it to charge my toothbrush.
"And that also goes for speaker wire.Multi million dollar live video and audio trucks just use regular old belden 16ga speaker wire and what ever power cord is acceptable for amp draw on the really expensive equipment."
I'm closing down RC Cables, Natoe convinced me...lol.
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http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/choose_speaker-wiring.aspx (http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/choose_speaker-wiring.aspx)
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf (http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf)
Just some good reading here,should shed a little light on the subject.
And yes the same 16ga wire is used for the rc cables in the same truck.
Maybe I'll call my friend that works for nep and you can tell him that everything will be sound a lot better with BIGGER WIRE and to forget what the ee's have concluded on this subject.NOT. lmao.
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"THE POWER CORD" I would like someone to show me on an oscilloscope how a power cord will make something sound better.
114v-130v ac 60hz is just that. a piece of wire will not make the piece of equipment sound any different unless, unless the cord was very under sized to begin with. OHMS LAW that math does not lie.
N.E.P and UNITEL spent millions of dollars to prove this whole wire theory wrong to the "IT WILL SOUND BETTER" people.And these people ars ee's that do this for a living.And that also goes for speaker wire.Multi million dollar live video and audio trucks just use regular old belden 16ga speaker wire and what ever power cord is acceptable for amp draw on the really expensive equipment.
Have you ever tried high end cables or power cords?
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Ah yes, the great cable debate :D :D :D Played out on every audio forum, I knew it had to happen here ;D ;D
I/C Cables DO make a difference in sound. In MY opinion, which is the only one that matters to ME. And so does power cables. :o :o :o
Let the great debate begin... :D
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Yes i have seen the power cord demo but no difference on a scope.What my point is, is the voltage coming is just that a piece of wire will not change 60hz or voltage just current draw and that is figured out to the draw of the product and sized right.
Its not like you are running a freq drive on you amps or to run your house.
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Yes i have seen the power cord demo but no difference on a scope.What my point is, is the voltage coming is just that a piece of wire will not change 60hz or voltage just current draw and that is figured out to the draw of the product and sized right.
Its not like you are running a freq drive on you amps or to run your house.
Your answer doesn't address the question I asked, "Have you ever tried high end cables or power cords?"
Anyway, I've noticed that many look at power cords from the wrong end, so to speak. The following is a good read.
Here are a few simple, straightforward explanations in layman's terms..
One of the fundamental reasons any decently designed after-market power cord can make a difference is that noise generated and shared within interconnected systems poses a far greater challenge to resolution and fidelity than externally generated AC interference. Just as it is within electronics themselves, the laws of proximity rule when it comes to the effective treatment of radiated and power supply generated noise.
Power cords are designed to act as sympathetic, noise-isolated extensions of the primary winding within a component’s power supply. Seen this way, their function takes on a more understandable role. They represent the initial outward electrical interface for each piece of electronics in the system. That raw wire interface can either act as an antenna for radiated HF and ground-borne noise or it can be engineered to isolate the power-supply port from internal and external EMI, RFI interference.
There is no such thing as a power supply that is adequate to filtering or isolating itself entirely from the huge volume of gigahertz noise that surrounds electronics systems and comes from within them. The bigger and more powerful the system, typically the larger the problem an unshielded or unprotected AC port can become. That is not to say electronics systems cannot sound great without after-market cords, or that tons of money must be spent on them, it's just to say that there is real-world science that explains why that they "can and most often do make an easy to hear difference or improvement in recorded or reproduced sound".
In general, power cords do not represent the last few feet of an AC grid leading to a component; they are first few feet from the perspective of each component’s power supply. Due to the fact that your AC is in principle the_source_ of sound for any music or sound system--AC rectified to DC which carries the signal through the system--it would seem imprudent to ignore the possibility of a difference and not perform the simplest of empirical experiments for oneself--unless the point of discourse is only to make funny asides under strict internet protection ).
Since no product of this or any kind are being forced on anyone, each is free to try for themselves and make their own determination. Certainly the fact that many of the finest recording studios, mastering professionals, electronics engineers speaker manufacturers openly use and endorse them would seem to dim some of the more ardent "internet posting professionals" erm, arguments...
Grant
Shunyata Research
More....
>>>"In some ways, it doesn't so much matter what is going on with the many feet of unshielded cable in your walls as long as you are effectively dealing with radiation, interference and noise potentially present in the area directly behind your equipment."<<<
That is essentially true. Improving the wire quality, gauge, isolation and connections between your panel and the wall outlet will render a noticeable improvement in most any system, but nowhere near the improvement *possible* as you move closer to electronics.
Too many people labor under the misconception that components sit at the end of an electrical "hose" and AC pours in like water carrying AC noise and garbage with it. The reality is that components sit between the hot and neutral poles of AC that are rapidly alternating current impulses. Noise that comes from outside the home is minimal and has almost no impact on system resolution compared to system generated and shared noise. Its still a good idea to have system protection from natural weather events or grid surge problems but even these in most cases are over rated. Electronics themselves have built in power filtration that will knock down common spikes and surges that are external to the system.
The bridge rectifiers or switching supplies in electronics--especially within amps and digital transports are often the main culprits in emitting ultra high-frequency noise both as a back-wave and a radiation pattern that surround electronics like a halo and race back through ground. Whatever can be done to mitigate that noise nearest its inception will often net the most obvious results. Obviously, nothing with AC is simple or insensitive so connections, terminations, resistance, reactance, impedance, shielding, geometry and wire type and quality can all play roles in shaping a final outcome.
Of course this is all a process and no one has all the answers. This is more of a readers digest version of what goes on based on experience.
I would never put PC's ahead of room treatment, electronics selection, speaker interface etc etc. However, when viewed as a system rather than as a single PC add on aftermarket tweak to be compared one at a time, replacing power cords in any stock PC system will render fairly irrefutable results in terms of a plainly audible difference. Whether that's good bad or otherwise is in the eye or ear of the beholder.
For those that don't believe their ears, replacing a stock PC on any top quality flat screen like a Pioneer Elite with a good shielded power cord will also render an immediate, hard to ignore result. FWIW.
Now, jumping back to my personal experiences with power cords. Not all after market power cords improve the sound as some do quite the opposite. Some like to talk about the placebo effect saying that since knowing how much the cord costs or who made it will affect ones judgement on how it sounds. I disagree. In fact, I tried one very expensive power cord (considerably more money than my current expensive cords) from a well known maker that just sucked the life out of the music. No placebo effect here, I returned it.
Bottom line, one has to try it in their own rig to know for sure AND synergy trumps everything else.
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Very nice write up Jesse. Thanks for sharing.
If shielding is the primary benefit, why do so many after market power cord designs use intricate combinations of large and small wire similiar to some speaker cables? I have noticed a difference using after market cords. PS Audio has some good cords. There are also a lot of nice DIY designs. The expensive IEC and Cable connectors made from copper, or Rhodium or some other exotic combo of materials have always been a mystery to me. No doubt they have superior build quality. However, you'll read testimony of how the cable/connector addeded warmth, detail, etc. as a function of the conductor material. Lot's of interesting points for consideration and investigation. No need to throw mud on this topic we've all heard numerous opinions from various perspectives.
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Yes i have seen the power cord demo but no difference on a scope.What my point is, is the voltage coming is just that a piece of wire will not change 60hz or voltage just current draw and that is figured out to the draw of the product and sized right.
Its not like you are running a freq drive on you amps or to run your house.
Look Here (http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88538)
Post number 3 shows the scope and the difference observed.
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If shielding is the primary benefit, why do so many after market power cord designs use intricate combinations of large and small wire similiar to some speaker cables?
Not sure I follow you, Carl.
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My two channel system is served by three 20 amp AC circuits, all terminated by Soloist SC in-wall conditioners. Each monoblock power amp has its own AC circuit. The third AC circuit serves the Power Plant Premier. The power amps are connected directly to the Soloists. The PPP feeds the line level preamp, phono preamp, SACD player, and turntable motor power supply.
There it is right there an in wall power conditioner. Change to the correct sized lamp cord or a really good sooj or so cord and the human ear will not hear it.
And as for the wire, some company's change the size of the separate conductors per current flow and to just get more conductors for the same kcmil.
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Ok, I'll take it that you haven't tried any after market power cords.
Since I have power conditioners from the same company and use their power cords as well, I can tell you from first hand experience that after market power cords still make a difference.
You really should try some for yourself.
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Natoe, on paper, helicopters won't fly.
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Sorry, yes I have tried an after market power cord and no I didn't see a difference on a scope with it or here a difference.
one was a supra lorad. see- here no difference to a good "so" cord made by me.but that is based on a true clean condition threw a power conditioner.That is the key right there argue all you want this point to me the power conditioner is what makes the difference not the cord hens my argument. maybe just maybe it might make a difference just out of the wall from the power company but i doubt that.
http://www.vhaudio.com/ (http://www.vhaudio.com/)
here i found this site just looking and saw the page with there "new spec grade receptacles". without even looking I knew that they were just hospital grade that is it nothing special.They are in every hospital here in town and some i put in are even better.yes that will do it right there that will clean up the incoming 120v 60hz . why not just install some isolation panels in your house and run the gear that way ya know the same stuff that is installed in the or rooms.They are one of the best power conditioners you can but $15,000 later just to here a symbol ting an octave higher and the 2:22 second maker on that one cd just that one cd out of the other 400 other ones you have listened to and didn't here a difference in.
To me it is how you put it best F1 NUT it is the placebo effect.
I mean this could go on for days about this. We can bring in polarized cords too and 200% neutrals, shit how about eddy currents and transformer hysteresis and saturation losses when the secondary get loaded, I could go on and on.
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Back to the main topic :o I got my Yaqin tube buffer today :D :D :D My wife and kids bought it for me for my birthday :D With the addition of a higher quality power cord, and new GE tubes given to me by Rev(thank you Rev) The sound is very good. I will review it after a week or so of listening. Simply switching out the power cord DOES make a noticeable improvement in sound quality :o :o :o
Mike
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About 4 months ago I bought two after market power cords (ps audio). I connected both to my APC H15 power conditioner, one I plugged one into my amplifier and one into my preamp. I could hear no discernible difference over the stock cords in the quality of the sound using the same tracks from a single SACD.
I took the new cord from the amplifier and put it between the wall receptacle (just a standard receptacle on the living room circuit) and the power conditioner. I played the exact same tracks from the exact same SACD, and the difference was significant.
The main thing I noticed was the difference in the extension and control of the low end bass. I don't know a damn thing about electrical theory, and I have no idea how or why the placement of the cord made such a difference, but now I am a bit less skeptical of the whole power cord issue.
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To me it is how you put it best F1 NUT it is the placebo effect.
Ummmm....that's not how I put it. I stated that I do not experience placebo effects when it comes to what my ears hear.
Do you really think that every person hearing a difference, be it good or bad, with cables/cords is nothing more than a placebo effect or is it only those that hear an improvement?
Furthermore, do you think that all those cable companies could stay in business if there wasn't a benefit to the products they sell? I mean, if it was all snake oil, as some would like us to believe, those businesses would be out of business, quickly.
Don't get me wrong. I truely believe that some people cannot hear differences for whatever reason. I also believe that some gear/systems will not benefit from aftermarket cables/cords because the gear isn't good enough. However, to say that cables/cords cannot make an improvement is ignoring the fact that the odds are not in your favor.