Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: RuralTom on January 20, 2014, 12:18:53 PM
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Hi All,
I hate asking stupid questions, but after searching the web for a bit I don't feel like I have any definitive answer...
How do you know how much power a speaker can handle, how much amp output is too much? I see my KG 5.2s say max 100, peak 500, is 100W as much as I can use ever? I assumed so, but looking at other rigs here I see people putting massive watts through speakers that are rated on the lower as well.
I see some of the speakers I might be interested in in the future might be more power hungry, so I'd like to move up to the 200W range, but don't really want to blow out the Klipschses...
Cheers
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I like amps that can out drive speakers. The reason is that the amp will not run out of headroom. More speakers are damaged buy having small amps being over driven than large amps blowing up speakers because of too much power.
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+1 with what thuffman said driving an amplifier past the point of clipping will cook a tweeter faster than you can toast a marshmallow
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You can never have enough power. However, don't let drunk people touch anything of you are running massive amps... >:D
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I second what OCCD said.. Alcohol blew up a really nice sony receiver I had -- I was totally pissd. It only takes one time.. I guess I am one of those people who keeps asking "hmm.. I wonder If I could push it a little further" Now I have an amp that puts out around 250wpc but my speakers can apparently only handle 100 or so...But I havnt had any problems (so far) Listen to your meters! Plus hearing damage would really suck -- you still wanna be able to hear that sweet Junior's growl of yours dont cha?
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You can never have enough power. However, don't let drunk people touch anything of you are running massive amps... >:D
That includes Tom, the Proac woofer destroyer! ^-^
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So, within reason, this is just a user beware kinda thing, I guess....
I don't imagine I'd have a problem with too little power. I was thinking of bridging 2 Adcom 5300s, for 160W power per channel, but want to make sure I won't fry the Klipsches. It'll just be on me to make sure I keep myself, and any drunks, from cranking it up too hard.
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It's always better to have more power then not have enough. As Uncle Ben (Spiderman not the rice) said, "with great power comes great responsibility. You won't run into this with your Klipsch's, but speakers with low sensitivity and require huge amounts of watts won't reach their full potential until you have the right amount of power. Case in point; Pepe trying to run 150watt amps on those giant shit boxes.
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Agree with everyone's comments. I once had a MAC 2500 (500 watts/side, plus headroom) driving a pair of speakers rated at 100/channel with no issues. Trust your ears-if anything sounds off, regardless of amplifier out put and power rating, back off the volume. As some of us have learned, do not test the limits of your system when less than sober. You can insert a fuse in the speaker wires, if your speakers have no protection (I may get blasted for suggesting this), even if temporarily to test performance limits. While this can protect the system, it may nor protect the tweeters.
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Should have added, be careful with bridged amps, they may not handle low impedance speakers (below 8 ohms) well.
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ALWAYS fuse your speakers. Fuses are cheap~
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I agree that too much power is better then not enough
I;m driving speakers rated at 150 watts with 530 watt amps
They seem to handle things just fine, If you are careful, things should be honky dorey
But keep the idiots and drunks away from the volume button.
My 2 Cents...
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First and foremost - In the words of Jeremy Clarkson, "Power!" Continuous power output is actually a statistical measure called the root mean square - RMS.
If you consider the graph of a sinusodial function as the output function of an audio amplifier, then the area under that function is equal to the power produced by said amplifier. As this function oscillates positive to negative, any periodic measurement would sum to zero as you would have equal positive and negative parts.
The S in RMS: The RMS measure avoids the above zero sum scenario by squaring of the output function at each point in the time domain (time domain is fancy talk for "when shit's happening") in order to guarantee that the value is positive.
The M in RMS: Since the function is a continuous wave that varies in amplitude with time, the values of all of the power measurements taken from the output function are added together and divided by the number of measurements taken over our time domain in order to achieve an average - or mean - value of the sums of the squares of the sampled values of the output function.
The R in RMS: Since all the power measurements needed to be positive in order to prevent the math telling us that the amp is putting out 0 power (again, due to sinusodial output), each of these measurements had to be squared. Since we are interested in continuous power, not continuous power squared, the square root of the mean of the sums of the squares is taken.
Root Mean Square - Literally, the square root of an average (mean) value that is calculated using data points whose values are all squared.
So you see, as an amplifier does it's thing, there is always that average output power value that is the RMS measure - A statistical measure. While RMS is all well and good, it is a very robust statistical measure and does not fare well when attempting to calculate peaks in amplifier output power.
When the load from your loudspeakers demand more current than the amplifier can supply, bad things happen.
Regarding dynamic power, it's far safer to have a solid state amplifier that is entirely too powerful for your speakers than one that has insufficient power. I said earlier that amplifier power is equal to the area under the graph of the output function of a given amplifier. When an amplifier "clips" it essentially produces an output signal that exceeds the ability of the amplifier to control, thus the wave function grows in amplitude to a point where the tops of the waves are chopped or "clipped" off flat. When the tops are clipped off of a sine wave, the shape of each wave comes to resemble a rectangle instead of series of waves, dramatically increasing the area under the output function. As a consequence, power increases to dangerous levels as does distortion. Since solid state amps distort primarily in odd harmonics, the harsh clipping sound that we've all come to know and (not) love is created. A good rule of thumb is to look for an amplifier with at least 3db of headroom; such amplifiers can double their power when the demand necessary.
Tube amps tend to clip in even harmonics. Along with that and the fact that they have relatively low NFB, tubes exhibit what some folks call "soft clipping".
Based on what I've just said, I hope it's evident that you are better off running an amp that puts out 200W RMS and 450 watts peak on a set of speakers that are rated at 60W RMS input than you are a set of speakers rated at 250W RMS input with an amplifier rated at 30W RMS output.
Of course, loudspeaker impedance and loudspeaker sensitivity play a significant role in this process, but, I feel like I've already typed enough crap that nobody wanted to read in the first place. >:D
Guys, I'm the farthest thing on Earth from an expert on this crap, feel free to correct any errors.
:police:
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Guys, I'm the farthest thing on Earth from an expert on this crap, feel free to correct any errors.
:police:
[/quote]
That makes me a piker
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Rowdy Roddy Piker!
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So, within reason, this is just a user beware kinda thing, I guess....
I don't imagine I'd have a problem with too little power. I was thinking of bridging 2 Adcom 5300s, for 160W power per channel, but want to make sure I won't fry the Klipsches. It'll just be on me to make sure I keep myself, and any drunks, from cranking it up too hard.
Bridged amps tend not to sound as good due to higher noise levels and as mentioned, do not want to see less than an 8 ohm nominal load.
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By the way Tom, I don't know what you're running now, but, I have an amp you can borrow in the meantime if needs be.
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Thanks to all for your input... seemed like a pretty straight forward topic that I simply was unable to either find or search correctly for!
I'm running an older NAD 304 2 35W, 120Wpeak for the time being. I picked up another GFA-5300 off Audiogon immediately after that should arrive in a day or two. Eventually I'll make it up to 'PVHF', likely take them both to be looked over and bridged.
So far, so good with the NAD. It's also in very good shape, just serviced & recapped.
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I've said this before......very very few amps sound better in bridge mode. You have enough power now. You' d be surprised how loud a few watts can get. My SET amp is barely one watt/channel and with the right speakers its loud. Bridged amps lose all woofer control.
But if you're after pure power bridge away.
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I am not a fan of bridging for home audio. I think that you loose some of the sound quality. Plus unless your speakers are 8 ohms, you may have trouble getting a good stereo image. Get big amps if you want more power. Remember, doubling the output wattage will only get you and additional 3 dB of volume.
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ALWAYS fuse your speakers. Fuses are cheap~
Do tell.... is this difficult? Never even heard of doing that, but that's a long list, lol!
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I am not a fan of bridging for home audio. I think that you loose some of the sound quality. Plus unless your speakers are 8 ohms, you may have trouble getting a good stereo image. Get big amps if you want more power. Remember, doubling the output wattage will only get you and additional 3 dB of volume.
I'll have to think this over. As it turns out, at the price I picked up another GFA-5300, I doubt if I could hav ehad mine brought back for less..... when the time comes maybe it would be better, not just cheaper, to buy bigger wattage.
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ALWAYS fuse your speakers. Fuses are cheap~
Do tell.... is this difficult? Never even heard of doing that, but that's a long list, lol!
Just posted this in another thread:
There's an easy answer here. Fuse your speakers for their maximum power handling capacity.
See chart below for a rough estimate. Use SLO-BLO fuses.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg286/TNRabbit/Audio/SpeakerFusingChart_zps6e1abeb7.gif)
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You can get an inline fuse holder from radio shack or amazon online & place it between your speaker cable and the POSITIVE speaker connection.
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I should give it a go sometime... but I'll need to find some quality speaker cable, won't work with the Monster cables I use currently.
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I should give it a go sometime... but I'll need to find some quality speaker cable, won't work with the Monster cables I use currently.
How so?
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Maybe I'm wrong... they are huge, thick totally enclosed cables with 'fancy' connections.... gold banana on one end, gold 'flex' at the other
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Go to Lowe's. Buy some lamp cord. Strip the ends of their insulation. Enjoy.
If you really want to get fancy, go to Frank's and buy some cheap jumper cables! ;D
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ALWAYS fuse your speakers. Fuses are cheap~
Why?
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ALWAYS fuse your speakers. Fuses are cheap~
Why?
Well, he says he's running 500+ watt amp into speakers with a maximum rating of @ 150 watts. Some drunk puts the balls to the volume & BOOM go your speakers~
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Sorry, misread that. 100 watt nominal, 500 max to Klipsch speakers?
Anywho, the same applies. If somebody screws up, you can blow drivers or crossover parts to bits.
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For some reason, I can't edit my posts...
FUSE = CHEAP INSURANCE
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Rule #1 of the Audio Handbook. Look, but don't touch.
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Rule #1 of the Audio Handbook. Look, but don't touch.
Yeah, well; I didn't say the drunk wouldn't be the owner~
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Sorry, misread that. 100 watt nominal, 500 max to Klipsch speakers?
Anywho, the same applies. If somebody screws up, you can blow drivers or crossover parts to bits.
Back to me, the OP, so is 160-200W per channel on those Klipsches rated 100/500 really so much on the edge?
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I've had a few different Klipsch speakers...if you pound them hard on a regular basis, it's a LOT cheaper to replace a fuse than a horn or woofer~ just sayin'
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Here's the deal.
You can pound on them to, say, 100-200 watts for short periods of time, on a regular basis, and it won't "blow" anything. The 500 watts is fraction-of-a-second by the way.
However, over time, you can cause melted spots between the voice coil wires, which will, over time, lead to lowering resistance/impedance. A little bit at a time like that can result in a pretty terribly melted voice coil in the end, that didn't come on all at once.
Like I said, depends on how hard you're pounding them & how often. Personally, I'd try to stay under 100 watts if that's the RMS rated value.
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Back to me, the OP, so is 160-200W per channel on those Klipsches rated 100/500 really so much on the edge?
Not really. Far more damage to speakers is caused by low powered amps than by high powered amps. It's not hard to tell when a system has reached its limits.
That said, once again bridged amps are not the way to go, IMO.
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You can never have enough power. However, don't let drunk people touch anything of you are running massive amps... >:D
That includes Tom, the Proac woofer destroyer! ^-^
Yes, that is me. proac destroyer. I am so toxic , I caused the foams to deteriorate. I am sure it had nothing to do with their age. :police: :police: :police: :police:
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For some reason, I can't edit my posts...
FUSE = CHEAP INSURANCE
I truely believe this even though I don't do it..... :-[
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Back to me, the OP, so is 160-200W per channel on those Klipsches rated 100/500 really so much on the edge?
Not really. Far more damage to speakers is caused by low powered amps than by high powered amps. It's not hard to tell when a system has reached its limits.
That said, once again bridged amps are not the way to go, IMO.
The bridged amp thing is all good, 'twas just a thought as I'm about to own two. At this point it's more for future reference.
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You can never have enough power. However, don't let drunk people touch anything of you are running massive amps... >:D
That includes Tom, the Proac woofer destroyer! ^-^
Ha ha, the foam was 30 years young
Yes, that is me. proac destroyer. I am so toxic , I caused the foams to deteriorate. I am sure it had nothing to do with their age. :police: :police: :police: :police:
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My speakers are rated at 250wpc and I normally run them with 1000wpc with no problems. I just use volume control and common sense. And as stated before Alcohol and the volume knob dont mix.
F1, Im interested to know why bridged amps lose sound quality. I have a pair of Carver Baby Blacks and run the bridged mono quite often. They seem to sound great but I like to learn when I can.
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This is discussed at length on multiple web forums, but this snippet of text is a good summary IMO:
Bridging (also called monobridging or monoblocking) is the summing of two channels of an amp to give one higher-powered channel. An amp normally rated at 100W might deliver 300W to 400W when bridged. Because of the summing however, the load on the amp is seen as half of its normal value. In other words, an 8-ohm speaker becomes a 4-ohm speaker load, and a 4-ohm speaker becomes a 2-ohm speaker load. Speaker impedance ratings are nominal only. Actual impedance may dip to a much lower value through part of its range. When an amp's current load has been doubled due to bridging, it can often fail to provide the required amount of current into the load. Sonic effects include harshness in the midrange and highs, and thin bass. In almost all situations therefore, biamping with similar amps will result in better sound quality than bridging. Bridging is best left to professional sound-reinforcement applications, where sound quality is secondary.
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F1, Im interested to know why bridged amps lose sound quality. I have a pair of Carver Baby Blacks and run the bridged mono quite often. They seem to sound great but I like to learn when I can.
CaptainTapeDeek nailed it.
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I still don't quite get it, as demonstrated by a Bose 1801 amp listed currently on CL.... what the heck would one use a 400W per channel amp for? I never see speakers rated for more than 200W at best. Some little key to the mystery is still eluding me...
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I quit paying attention to speaker wattage ratings a long time ago.
If you are putting too much power to speakers, your ears will tell you right away. Just be careful with the volume knob.
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Stupid physics. >:D >:D >:D
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I still don't quite get it, as demonstrated by a Bose 1801 amp listed currently on CL.... what the heck would one use a 400W per channel amp for? I never see speakers rated for more than 200W at best. Some little key to the mystery is still eluding me...
Carver AL-IIIS are rated for 565 watts. One of many.
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One word... HEADROOM.