Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => CARVER => Topic started by: Slim-Shaddy on July 04, 2011, 10:07:32 AM
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I just threw on a Tool Cd and cranked it up a bit and noticed some popping coming from one of the ribbons during some of the loud passages. The amp's (TFM-35x) needle was hitting just under the 250 watt mark. It also seemed to be worse for certain frequencies at lower power. Is this something normal for these speakers (AL-iii)? Am I running too little power and over driving the amp? Is the ribbon dying? Do they need to be broken in more? I've heard Tom play ALs much louder at his shop, so I don't think the answer is simply dialing back the volume. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
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Don't know the specs. on your amp, but might it have been clipping?
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Don't know the specs. on your amp, but might it have been clipping?
Specs:
8-ohm FTC rated power/ch 250 W
4-ohm FTC rated power/ch 350 W
Bridged mono power 700 W
4/8-ohm FTC rated THD 0.01%
Input Impedance (Line) 47 kohms
Input Sensitivity 1.5V
Gain 29dB
Rated full power bandwidth 20-20kHz
S/N-IHF A-Weighted,dB >115dB
Dimensions (HxWxD inches) 4.5x19x15.7 (with handles)
Comments 25 lbs
I don't think it was clipping, but I guess it could be possible. I'm not sure how the meters work when the impedance is changed. The meters show 8 ohms and the speakers are 4.
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I wouldn't put much faith in the meters, your ears are a better gauge. Clipping sounds nasty and kills tweeters. I'd be careful with the TFM-35 and these speakers.
I hear Tom's got some high power tube amps that might work better. :laugh:
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I have a PM 1.5 I might try. It's 450 per channel at 8, 600 at 4. I want to make sure, though, that there's no issue with the ribbons before I up the power...
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The 35 is a great amp but not a great match for the ALIII's. 2 words...MORE POWER...make it 4...HIGHER CURRENT!!!
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The 35 is a great amp but not a great match for the ALIII's. 2 words...MORE POWER...make it 4...HIGHER CURRENT!!!
What would you recommend? I have the PM 1.5. How do you think that would do? Is there anything out there less expensive than the 300~2 that would be up to the task or should I just start saving up for a sunfire?
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I'm thinking the PM-1.5 at 375/channel at 8 ohms has to be an improvement even with the fan. I've got one but never had it hooked to the ALIII's. Almost everyone I've talked to say you need high power/high current. I run a 600x2 at the moment and I almost think they can handle more! If you are close to OCCD, have him listen to them and give you his opinion. As he told me...he KNOWS what ALIII's should sound like!!! Good luck...P.S...hook up the 1.5 and report back!!!!!
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The ribbons won't pop if something is wrong. Put your PM 1.5 on them.
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Running the PM now. They sure sucked up that power fast!!!! Brought the PM to just below the clip mark and the ALs sounded their best so far in my possession, but they are still begging for more :o. Kind of scary! I have no idea what the line is on these... and I like loud music ???
Anyway... my initial question is answered...
Thanks a ton guys!!
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You were clipping your other amp; the meter is calculated for 8 ohms, but AL-IIIs are 4 ohms. So you were probably hitting 500 watts at 250~
FYI: The crossover on all the Amazings are POWER HOGS. They easily rob 40% of the power...
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How well does running active x-overs help the efficiency?
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How well does running active x-overs help the efficiency?
Strictly speaking; no. Crossovers do not change how the individual drivers use the signal sent to them or change their inherent efficiency. Active crossovers do allow for more power to be used for each driver and processing for each driver, should you desire. This capability is valuable in a large system, but (maybe) not so much for a home system.
If, however, the speaker's crossover actually eats 40% of the amps's power, as someone stated, an active crossover and separate amps will increase the speaker's perceived efficiency.
IMHO. :o
Bill Cain
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My train of thought on using the active crossover is that maybe the woofer is less sensitive than the ribbon, so resistors were used to compensate. But, all in all, it's the same difference. I'm still going to need the same amount of power to get the same result.
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My train of thought on using the active crossover is that maybe the woofer is less sensitive than the ribbon, so resistors were used to compensate. But, all in all, it's the same difference. I'm still going to need the same amount of power to get the same result.
If the speaker's crossover is actually dumping a ton of signal into resistors to compensate for an inefficient woofer, I agree with you - up to a point.
With an active crossover, you might use the same amount of power to drive the woofer, but you can then use another, smaller amp for the tweeter by bypassing the speaker crossover. If you clip the woofer amp, the tweeter amp will be unaffected. Your tweeters will thank you.
;D
Bill Cain
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Glad you are up and running...as I said...these can take a ton of power. 8) 8) 8)...start saving for the Sunfire!!!
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Glad you are up and running...as I said...these can take a ton of power. 8) 8) 8)...start saving for the Sunfire!!!
Amen!!! Will do.
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How loud did you have it? I would think that clipping that amplifier would result in a painful SPL in a living room.
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when I use a single tfm45 to run a set of amazings, if I push it hard it will start to sound like crap after about 1 album
it will start to get a harsh nasty hashy sound to it
your clipping the amp
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your clipping the amp
Yeah, I've come to that conclusion. I've never heard clipping through ribbons before I guess. Sounded like a crackle or pop. Almost like bottoming out a driver but not as loud.
How loud did you have it? I would think that clipping that amplifier would result in a painful SPL in a living room.
Really wasn't all that loud. I mean... it was cranked up, but wasn't painful or anything.
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it was cranked up, but wasn't painful or anything
...the 35 couldn't push those speakers to a painful level. That's a 250 watter trying to drive 575 watt speakers! :o
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I haven't heard popping in my ribbons before but I wouldn't doubt that 250wpc might be too little. My amazing's are 8ohm and seem fine with a 300x2 or 760x (380wpc). So clean you don't realize how loud they are until you try to talk to the person next to you and can't hear your own voice. :P
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The 760 can double the current and power if needed into lower ohm loads...the 35 cannot. ;)
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So clean you don't realize how loud they are until you try to talk to the person next to you and can't hear your own voice. :P
you too???? ;D ;D ;D
did your ears ring after?
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Couple more questions I figured I'd ask here instead of starting a whole new thread. If I rewire the speakers for active x-overs, can I just tap into the wires after the crossover and leave the binding posts in so they can be wired either way? I understand I will have to drill and add new binding posts taking that route.
Also, if I pursue that option, what is the power handling of the ribbon? I'm going to replace the woofers eventually, so the power rating on the current ones isn't all that important.
Oh, and speaking of replacing the woofers... I know the popular mod is the Infinity Kappa perfect 10.1, but have any of you heard of anyone having success with other brands?
Thanks again!
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Shape-shifter; check out this thread: http://vintagehifipgh.com/forum/index.php?topic=945.msg8610#msg8610 (http://vintagehifipgh.com/forum/index.php?topic=945.msg8610#msg8610)
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Thanks TNRabbit. I've checked out that thread several times. Very informative!! If and when I take on this project I will be using that thread quite a bit.
It looks like your ALs have been re veneered. Is that true, and if so, did you do it yourself? I have the AL-III plus speakers which are vinyl veneered on top of MDF. I would like to re-veneer them, but it looks like, to do it right, I will have to remove the panels to the sides of the ribbon. Is there a way to do this?
Sorry for all of the questions guys. Just excited about the new spikas...
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I can guide you on that, grasshopper.
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Thanks TNRabbit. I've checked out that thread several times. Very informative!! If and when I take on this project I will be using that thread quite a bit.
It looks like your ALs have been re veneered. Is that true, and if so, did you do it yourself? I have the AL-III plus speakers which are vinyl veneered on top of MDF. I would like to re-veneer them, but it looks like, to do it right, I will have to remove the panels to the sides of the ribbon. Is there a way to do this?
Sorry for all of the questions guys. Just excited about the new spikas...
No, they've never been re-veneered...same vinyl you have I assume. The oak panels were "pickled" finish by the original owner, but all else was stock until I started modifying them.
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Congrats on the great speakers Ed!!! You have gone over to the dark side. :o
Now those 100 w.p.c. amps will be no good to you!! You are stuck with Carver amps. 8) 8) 8)
Not that, that is a bad thing.. I'm just sayin.. nowhere else can you get as many watts per dollar..
____
Mike
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The dark side has been good to me.
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I haven't heard popping in my ribbons before but I wouldn't doubt that 250wpc might be too little. My amazing's are 8ohm and seem fine with a 300x2 or 760x (380wpc). So clean you don't realize how loud they are until you try to talk to the person next to you and can't hear your own voice. :P
If the SPL level is over 110 in your listening position, you are doing permanent damage to your ears. Turn it down!
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Carl, let me know in graille if I'm shaking your windows in Monroeville :P :P :laugh: :laugh:
here's the new LR set-up for the time being...
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I'm starting to slowly discover that the wonder of ribbons is the soundstage... Super smooth sound lacking in detail. Where they lack in detail they make up in pinpoint imaging and super broad soundstage. Does that pretty much sum it up?
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Lacking in detail??
Not my experience....
The rest....yeah!
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I'm starting to slowly discover that the wonder of ribbons is the soundstage... Super smooth sound lacking in detail
do these speaks have the 3 pots on them?
looking at your pic, spread them apart, less tilt about 2/3deg back
yes ribbons have a different sound, but once you listen to them for a while, you will like them....
but, beware. when you go back and listen to cone speakers you will think,...
these kinda sound like crap..... :D :D :D
welcome to the DARK SIDE....... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Ribbons and Electrostatics have much lower distortion than conventional speakers.
It is measurable.
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Wow schwarcw, I haven't had anyone tell me to turn it down since I was little. Thank you for your concern of my ears. :laugh:
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I live on the dark side! :P
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I'm starting to slowly discover that the wonder of ribbons is the soundstage... Super smooth sound lacking in detail
do these speaks have the 3 pots on them?
looking at your pic, spread them apart, less tilt about 2/3deg back
yes ribbons have a different sound, but once you listen to them for a while, you will like them....
but, beware. when you go back and listen to cone speakers you will think,...
these kinda sound like crap..... :D :D :D
welcome to the DARK SIDE....... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
No, they don't have the pots. What do you mean by 2/3 deg back?
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Lacking in detail??
Not my experience....
The rest....yeah!
Please explain???? Lack of detail??? ???
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come to the dark side....
we have cookies.
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What do you mean by 2/3 deg back?
tilt back when facing them, the top of the Speaker will be a bit farther back....