Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: OldiesButGoodies on May 28, 2011, 09:46:00 AM
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All:
I am using a pair of Mirage 890is in my stereo listening room and I am very happy with them, though as you know one is always looking for that next upgrade that will magically project a holographic image of Nora Jones and... well you get what I am saying. I also want to try electrostatics since I have never owned them before, so I thought of getting a pair of Martin Logan EM-ESL:
http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php (http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php)
Also considering an old pair of ML Scripts or Ascents.
So the question is this -
This is an expensive upgrade (specially for a tightwad like me), so - do you think it is worth it? Why are MLs rarely mentioned here? Are there cheaper options? I thought of Magnepan, but the panels are way to big for my room. A pair of MMGs would work I guess - never tied those.
This would be much easier if the Mirages were not so darn good*.
OBG
*So Tom will prob say 'don't mess with the setup and listen to the musc'
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Martin Logans are good but some of them don't age well.
Sometimes panels need to be replaced.
Best used electrostatics are Acoustat and Sound Labs.
Quads are ok too if you can get a good deal and the panels aren't damaged.
Someone had Acoustats on craigslist for $350 but they don't answer my emails.
I own 2 pairs of Acoustats.
Anders
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While I can't attest to the magic of electrostatic loudspeakers, I can say that my Stax electrostatic headphones are in an entirely different league as compared to "traditional" driver-type headphones.
If the same applies to speakers, take Anders' advice and you'll be thrilled.
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I've owned the ML Vistas for two years and I really like them - they are different - airy, image well, no problems with them - except I blew out a woofer - they sent me a replacement immediately... no questions asked. Powered by the Luxman R-1120 on its electrostatic speaker circuit. I use the 490T to feed two systems - the MLs with the Luxman and the Aerials with the c5 and Mac 2300. The sound is pretty alright....vintEDge
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Pics were a no load...
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How bout some ribbons??? ;)
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Never had ribbons before. The Carver Amazings did not sound well to me when I listened to them at the VHFS, but they were not ideally positioned for sound*. They are also pretty large. Someone I know in Cranberry is selling a pair of Magnepan MMGs - I may go look a them.
Thanks,
OBG
*Tom: This would be a great add to the new location - use one of the rooms as a dedicated listening room to show off equipment combos
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Pics were a no load...
Hmmm. What is that nice looking speaker to the right?
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Aerial 8bees
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I get the impression Tom misses those Aerials and would gladly take them off your hands any time.
:D
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I was very busy last night with emergencies and couldn't make it up :'(- getting ready for a job and won't make next week either- maybe week after - this work thing sure interferes with my life. ::)
Pepe-I never owned ribbons so I don't know what to tell you - but the Logans sure sound percussively articulate, bass is via 8" woofers and sound tight and full to me - I don't need a sub - when I play Oscar Peterson's reunion blues on a Sunday reading the paper I'll stop and think "damn that sounds good"! IMHFO. Need a min of 100watts - using R-1120 which sounds excellent too- tube like...
Ed
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Tom,
Those Aerials are doing fine - get something better and maybe I'll trade 'em in.....maybe in the future I'll replace the Mac with a Sunfire??
VINTedGE
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...but the Logans sure sound percussively articulate, bass is via 8" woofers and sound tight and full to me - I don't need a sub - when I play Oscar Peterson's reunion blues on a Sunday reading the paper I'll stop and think "damn that sounds good"! IMHFO. ....
Yep - that sound like what I am looking for. The imaging of planars with a dynamic driver for mid and low bass.
Pepe
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When I worked at Audio gallery we got in Martin Logans for awhile.
They sounded good but really nothing like a full range electrostatic speaker.
Imagine those wonderful sounding mids going all the way down in the bass.
Makes every dynamic speaker (woofer) sound distorted by comparison.
Anders
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I emailed about the Accutats too, Anders.
As Phil Collins would put it, there's no reply at all.
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Stats have sound all their own. I have heard the ML's, the Magi's and the Janszen Electrostatic (http://Janszen Electrostatic) (some quotes from an extensive review I wrote about these are used on the web sight).
I personally prefer the Magi's, (the Janszen's are $20k, out of range for most all of us, but they are V special sounding). For entry level, IMHO it's tough to beat the MMG for ~ $600 direct from the factory. Plus you can get credit on them if you decide to upgrade.
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For what it's worth, Magnepan are not electrostats~
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Never had ribbons before. The Carver Amazings did not sound well to me when I listened to them at the VHFS, but they were not ideally positioned for sound*. They are also pretty large. Someone I know in Cranberry is selling a pair of Magnepan MMGs
I think if you heard a proper, setup pair of amazings you'd poop your pants. :P I have had MMGs and various other maggies with or without ribbons and have heard several pairs of ML's. For the size and dynamic range it's hard to beat a pair of ML's. The maggies are very good sounding but you'll notice 1) a lack of bass, 2) are a pain to setup (room needed behind/beside them) and 3) at 4' tall aren't the smallest things in the world either. That being said, since they're available, try the MMGs. You never know.
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Everyone knows I love electrostatic speakers. I have listened to ML many time, but no match to full range stats to my ears. I actually got to hear the accustats that were on cl, but during the audition the guy decided not to sell them. Too bad, I would like to have compared them to KLH 9's head to head.
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For what it's worth, Magnepan are not electrostats~
Opps!
Thanks for the clarification there, Rabbit....
My Bad for posting in a rush!
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KLH 9's have no real low end but what they do is some of the best sound i've ever heard when working right and connected to good equipment.
My Acoustat X's sound like the KLH 9's but with real low bass and can play louder with better dynamics.
Maggies sound good but not as open as electrostatics and they tend to make everything sound larger than life.
The reason maggis don't have bass is because there is no good cabinet support.
They wobble in the breeze.
The diaphram pushes out but the cabinet moves back canceling out the bass.
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I dont know what you call low end but 40 hz is low enough for most music, and the klh will do 40 if placed together (some sacrifice of imaging). Having said that I did notice that with 200 watt of clean solid state power the acustats rocked! More dynamic and more bass, but I was in a concrete garage with block walls and was sure that made them sound louder.
If i could have bought the accustats, i would have. Someday soon I am going to hook the KLH to ss instead of tubes. I have a 200 watt mosfet i would like to try on them, I think this would give better base and some of the tube sweetness on top. I will have to be careful with the volume as the klh are only rated for 75 watts.
I am nervous about just hooking this amp up, because I know when hooked to crown ss (DC150 or 300) the manual calls for a cap and resistor in the speaker lines for impedance matching. Does anyone know anything about this?
THX,
Dale
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The only electrostatics I personally would have are the BIG ones--I've not been impressed with any less than 5'..... (ML Monolith, for example)
However, I'd take my Carver AL-IIIs over them for the $$$--I could get several pair of Carvers for what a pair of Monoliths cost!
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Acoustats were quite affordable when new.
My Acoustat X's came with their own direct drive hybrid amps and list price was only $2000.
No need to buy a power amp !
I paid $1400 for mine which were almost new when I bought them.
I used to have the original boxes and I also have a spare pair of empty cabinets.
Anders
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When I had the Magnepan MG12QRs I noticed that some music sounded incredible (anything involving guitars, etc.) and other stuff sounded ok, lacking the punchy midbass. I did experiment with the bass issue by having friends hold the frame steady and that seems to improve bass, so I would agree with Anders on that. I supplemented the bass with a Paradigm Ref 15 and that helped, but I could tell the match was poor. For now I am holding on buying anything until I listen to a pair of MLs (and until the house in CA rents again - it has been empty for three months :'()
Regards,
Pepe
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If i could have bought the accustats, i would have. Someday soon I am going to hook the KLH to ss instead of tubes. I have a 200 watt mosfet i would like to try on them, I think this would give better base and some of the tube sweetness on top. I will have to be careful with the volume as the klh are only rated for 75 watts.
I am nervous about just hooking this amp up, because I know when hooked to crown ss (DC150 or 300) the manual calls for a cap and resistor in the speaker lines for impedance matching. Does anyone know anything about this?
That's interesting. Wouldn't that also act as a filter?
Is that something specific to the Crown amps?
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I never heard a pair of Acoustats. The Martin Logan's that I have heard all sounded superb, but all had excellent Amps powering them. Dale's KLH 9's are also excellent sounding speakers. They are not in the perfect environment either, so I would think they could sound even better!!
I have not had good experience with Maggie's. Never heard a pair that I liked.
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I do not know, but an old audiophilr buddy of mine tells me to investigate further before just hooking up a ss amp. Not sure if it is a filter or to control impedance. My small knowledge of electricity tells me that the capacitive load of the electrostats should be reflected back as in inductive load and should be no problem. Other internet denizens indicate the load will be resistive, neither of which should be a problem for ss.
Till I find out for sure, I will respect my buddy's suggestion, as he has been doing this much longer than I have. Plus they already sound great on my Eico, and should sound better on my AR D76.
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I spent about a year trying to run down some good Carver speakers and then started saving for these MLs http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-ElectroMotion-ESL-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B004M8S12A/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1309034131&sr=8-13 (http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-ElectroMotion-ESL-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B004M8S12A/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1309034131&sr=8-13)
Then I ran across a girl trying to unload these - http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-ElectroMotion-ESL-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B004M8S12A/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1309034131&sr=8-13 (http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-ElectroMotion-ESL-Electrostatic-Loudspeaker/dp/B004M8S12A/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1309034131&sr=8-13)
My advice would of course be to get the MLs, but keep a close ear to the second hand market and like me, you might be rewarded.
These Def Tecs are incredible and no sub is needed for 2 channel.
You can find some good amazing/used junk if you are patient, including better MLs than you might be able to afford new.
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I listened to the ML ESLs for an hour today. Amazing imaging. My next speakers.
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http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/2437966010.html (http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/2437966010.html)
http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/ele/2383534690.html (http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/ele/2383534690.html)