Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slim-Shaddy on May 14, 2012, 10:08:00 AM
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Yep.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm)
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Yes... Interesting article...
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I was curious what he thought about litz wiring in turntables, so I asked. I didn't get as elaborate of a response as I would have liked, but here you go...
I just read "Speaker wire - A History" and enjoyed it very much. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on Litz wire. I am having my old Technics SL-1200 turntable rewired with it, and I am wondering if you think it's a worth it. I'm having the headshell clamp bypassed, and running the litz straight from the cartridge to rca jacks, so I pretty sure I will hear a difference from losing a couple contact points, but do you think the litz will make a difference?
Thanks,
Ed
Ed:
I don't think that will make any difference either. However, if a headshell plug is used it's a good idea to spray the contacts with contact cleaner.
Roger
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It's an argument that no one will ever win. I can tell a huge difference between my stock rega arm and after I rewired with litz wire and silver platted connectors. I agree with Roger that it is ridiculous to spend thousands of dollars on wire but there is a difference between using good wire/connectors vs. lamp cord.
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I would love to do a blind taste test. Either way, spending money on improving cables will always make less of a difference than spending the same money on improving room acoustics. But, I know for a fact that most people who consider themselves audiophiles will be more likely to spend their money on cables because they have been brainwashed to think that it makes an astronomical improvement to the sound. How many cable advertisements do you see verses acoustic foam.
I know I took Roger's point down a different path. I just thought it was a good example.
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I think that if expensive cables make your system sound better to you by all means use them. My MIT speaker cables sound good. Is it the wire? Is it the articulation box? I dunno. I also have other systems wired with good stranded speaker wire. I like them too. Whatever floats your boat... ;)
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I agree with room improvements Ed being a good place to spend your money. The most expensive system in the world will sound crappy in a bad room. I've heard inexpensive systems sound great in a acoustically good room. If your room doesn't allow for much acoustics modding, at least try to get your speakers set up by placing them for optimum imaging and soundstage. And, use furniture to break up first wall reflections and carpet to fix floor bounce.
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I heard some amazing sounding systems at AKFest 2012 a few weeks ago. They were all set up in hotel rooms with most of the furniture removed. The great sounding systems had the speakers well away from the rear wall and a decent distance away from the side walls. One set I heard, don't remember the maker, made you believe the band was all behind the speakers. If you closed your eyes, you could not have any been able to discern where the speakers were placed in the room.
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Scott,
I remember that being one of Legacy's claims to fame. They said something about their speakers being able to sound great even in the worst rooms.
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<--- Team Roger
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I think that if expensive cables make your system sound better to you by all means use them. My MIT speaker cables sound good. Is it the wire? Is it the articulation box? I dunno. I also have other systems wired with good stranded speaker wire. I like them too. Whatever floats your boat... ;)
he,he,, try rolling tubes ;D
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I feel that there's a certain threshold involved with our perception of fidelity, kind of like your brains own Nyquist limit.
Any conductor that is sufficient to surpass that threshold will generally sound the "same" as any other sufficient conductor.
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You got a mathematical proof for that theory A-A?? :-*
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Ha. I read a job ad for Dolby Labs a while back, was for an "Advanced Acoustic Theory Researcher". They required a PhD in math, physics, or the like, an absolute love for sound, aesthetic principles, music, psychology, electronics, and a research background.
The job was described as researching why we hear what we hear, what makes it sound "good", how that can be duplicated, formulated, and enhanced.
If that's not my absolute dream job, I don't know what is.
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#1 mod is not something you do to the stereo. It's a q-tip and some peroxide.
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It's a q-tip and some peroxide
...Peroxide??? What does that do???
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To clean ears, Confederate, to clean ears. :P :P
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To me anyone who says there is no difference in the sound of wire is insane.
Its been proven over and over again in magazines like The Absolute Sound and Stereophile.
But the interesting thing is that when I worked for a hi-end stereo store and I got to try all the expensive wire I always found that the cheapest in the line sounded the best.
For Cardas it was the 300B that sounded the best.
Actually 16 gauge lamp cord is not bad for a cheaper system but it does roll off the highs and sound a but dull.
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You may be right, I may be crazy.
I'm smelling a blind taste test at the shop one weekend after the yard sale / cleanup stuff is all said and done with.
What do you guys think? It doesn't have to be an IRB certified blind AxB test, but, just a "mess around with different ______" type of event with the intention of picking out differences.
Perhaps there are differences that are obvious, but I don't know enough about what I should be listening for to notice such differences?
What do you think, Anders? It could be fun.
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Yep.
http://www.woger-wussell.com/wire/wire.htm (http://www.woger-wussell.com/wire/wire.htm)
First time you've run across that one, eh? Did you get to the part where he justifies his use of Cardas cable in his speakers? Didn't the term hypocrite come to mind?
I have no vested interest in any cable company, so this advice comes strictly from my experiences. Cables can and do make a difference, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. It's also dependent on the level of gear used. I mean it makes no sense to run $5000.00 speaker cables with an amp that costs $500.00. On the other hand it makes no sense to run $500.00 speaker cables on an amp that costs $10,000.00. There needs to be an appropriate balance and synergy trumps everything. For example, you can have two different brands of cables that cost $500.00 each used in the same rig were one sounds like crappola and the other like angels singing.
The bottom line is you need to experiment for yourself with an open mind and not simply take the word of someone that lacks the principles to stick to his guns.
~Edit to correct the brand of cable......I can't remember everything~
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You may be right, I may be crazy.
I'm smelling a blind taste test at the shop one weekend after the yard sale / cleanup stuff is all said and done with.
What do you guys think? It doesn't have to be an IRB certified blind AxB test, but, just a "mess around with different ______" type of event with the intention of picking out differences.
Perhaps there are differences that are obvious, but I don't know enough about what I should be listening for to notice such differences?
What do you think, Anders? It could be fun.
Rather than conduct a useless blind test with gear and a room that you are not familiar with, try some different cables in your rig. Live with one set for a week or two, then put your original cables back in. Make your assessment then. And since you say you don't know enough about what you should be listening for to notice such differences have someone that does educate you first.
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A simple test for the quality of your stereo.
Listen for awhile and then turn it off.
Do you want to turn it on again and listen some more or do you want to go do something else.
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And since you say you don't know enough about what you should be listening for to notice such differences have someone that does educate you first.
No, don't do this. You will already be programming your mind for placebo effect. Just listen. Trust your ears.
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Well, I definitely respect Jesse (F1)'s opinion and experiences. Perhaps under the right conditions, as he suggested, I would notice a significant difference.
I also don't have extensive experience dealing with a multitude of high-priced gear and a wide range of high end cables as some of you do. My experiences are limited to what I've heard at my house, at the shop, and at VHF members' homes. Trusting my ears has led me to believe that a vast majority of gear sounds very similar, to the point where my uneducated ears have a very difficult time discerning various componentry of a similar caliber.
Perhaps in that way, I'm fortunate as lately I find myself spending more and more time enjoying the music and less and less time contemplating trades and upgrades. :)
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I can respect anyone's opinion. I liked the article. Roger Russell, more than likely, has more experience than anyone on this forum with trying different wires in different ways. That doesn't mean I think what he says is be all end all, but it's interesting. I have personally never owned super expensive speaker wire. The best I had was a pair of MIT bi-wire cables that were a throw in with a pair of speakers I bought years ago. I never tried different wires with those speakers, and when I got rid of the speakers, I got rid of the cables. I have a couple nice pairs of interconnects that were thrown in on deals. The only wires I thought I could hear a difference with were discovery "Plus 4." But now I'm curious. I might go back and put a pair of "comcast" cables in and see what I hear.
F1, yes, that was the first time I came across the article. After reading what you said about him justifying using Monster Cables, I went back and scanned the article. I noticed the part about Mcintosh demo rooms. Is this what you were talking about?
------Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment.
The demand for high quality speaker wire was increasing and appeared to be a new marketing area for several companies. McIntosh did not make or sell speaker wire. The solution seemed very obvious--rather than spend time and effort to create negative sales for McIntosh dealers who were beginning to sell speaker wire, it seemed best to encourage the speaker owner/customer to consult with the dealer about what speaker wire to use. Consequently, I no longer recommended the kind of wire or wire sizes in the speaker manuals.
By 1988, McIntosh no longer supplied audio interconnects with the electronics. Again, many kinds of special audio cables were available to the customer/owner. The dealer could also be consulted about what cables to use.
I credit the success of the speaker wire industry to their expert sales and marketing ability. However, it is my experience that ordinary copper wire, as long as it's heavy enough, is just as good as name brands.
Looking at this from a different perspective, there will always be those who will want expensive wire, not because there is an audible difference, but because they may value pride of ownership and prestige in a similar way to that of owning a Tiffany lamp or a Rolex watch.
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F1, yes, that was the first time I came across the article. After reading what you said about him justifying using Monster Cables, I went back and scanned the article. I noticed the part about Mcintosh demo rooms. Is this what you were talking about?
No, not that. I'm speaking about the fact that he uses Cardas cable as chassis wire in his current line of speakers.
~Edit to correct the brand of cable......I can't remember everything~
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http://www.ids25.com/literature.htm#The%20Enclosure%20and%20Wiring (http://www.ids25.com/literature.htm#The%20Enclosure%20and%20Wiring)
Yeah, that's disappointing.
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A number of years ago, in either Audio or Stereo Review, an extensive list of various types and brands of wire was tested, including solid core house wire, amoung other non typical interconnects. If I can find the srticle, I'll post it.
The long and short of the story was: a well constructed stranded cable of sufficient diameter relative to it's length sounded as good as or better than anything else. Once these basic parameters were met and the cable securely fastened, the differences in the various esoteric cables could not be measured or heard.
Personally, I suspect we think certain cables sound better than others because they may indeed sound different. However, the reason may very well be due to a slight change in the diameter of the cross section, it's length and/or the fact that a change in cables sometimes improves sound simply because the contact surfaces have been disturbed (cleaned of any possible oxidation in the process) during the wire exchange. I also believe that if I spent $5k, or even $500 for cables, they would sound better to me.
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Empirically, I would agree with what MacGeek is saying. Beyond meeting a sufficient condition for conductivity, there is no observable degradation in sound quality. I've said it before, I'll say it again, the laws of physics break down under the influence of psychoacoustics.
Jesse, do you think that it'd even be worth swapping out speaker cables in an attempt to hear a difference given my Onkyo / Paradigm setup? It's not exactly a Lightstar driving Snell B's. ;D
I don't doubt that people are able to hear a difference. Whether or not that perception can be quantified is where my interests would lie.
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@A-A, we've spent a little time together listening to stuff at my house. IIRC, you were not particularly interested in how good speakers or headphones created a 3D image or soundstage. I suspect this influences your perception of how different or the same various Hi-Fi systems sound. You agree?
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I agree. I'm more into the music than I am what's creating it, as long as it sounds "good".
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No Comment. ???
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Jesse, do you think that it'd even be worth swapping out speaker cables in an attempt to hear a difference given my Onkyo / Paradigm setup? It's not exactly a Lightstar driving Snell B's. ;D
There's no harm in experimenting. :)
What are you using now and what, if any, others have you tried?
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I'm not sure if you guys know this but I came from a high-end background having worked in alot of the high-end stereo shops that were in Pittsburgh.
I was known as an audiophile who actually had ears.
If you guys are seriously interested in weather wire makes a difference you should be looking for articles in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.
I'm not up on what sounds good now but I could tell you what was good back in the 90's.
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I also believe that if I spent $5k, or even $500 for cables, they would sound better to me.
I find that kind of comment troubling. Why would you not simply trust your ears? I mean, I've tried certain cables that cost a lot more than what I currently own and found that I didn't care for them.....for whatever reason, they didn't make the angels sing. There was no way I was going to keep them because of their price tag.
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I'm not sure if you guys know this but I came from a high-end background having worked in alot of the high-end stereo shops that were in Pittsburgh.
I was known as an audiophile who actually had ears.
If you guys are seriously interested in WEATHER wire makes a difference you should be looking for articles in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.
I'm not up on what sounds good now but I could tell you what was good back in the 90's.
You dropped the entire message of your post by 10 points with your misuse of the word WHETHER~
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I knew I misspelled it.
Just checking to see if anyone was paying attention.
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The truth? You can't handle the truth!
(http://timeentertainment.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/a-few-good-men.jpg?w=576)
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LOL
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Why would you not simply trust your ears?
...and in the simplicity is the answer to all questions. Thank you Jesse! ;)
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I also believe that if I spent $5k, or even $500 for cables, they would sound better to me.
I find that kind of comment troubling. Why would you not simply trust your ears? I mean, I've tried certain cables that cost a lot more than what I currently own and found that I didn't care for them.....for whatever reason, they didn't make the angels sing. There was no way I was going to keep them because of their price tag.
If the change in sound quality was obvious (and worse), my decision would be not to buy expensive cables and I do trust my ears. Unfortunately, what I hear and what I think I hear mix together when it all hits my brain, which tells me expensive cables should sound better than my 12 guage, decent quality stranded wire set up. I guess I would always be concerned I am not hearing something that matters.