Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slim-Shaddy on January 11, 2011, 10:03:52 PM
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So I'm putting together a little system in our dining room, and I want to incorporate an Ipod dock. I've read that the Ipod actually has a pretty decent DAC. I'm looking for recommendation as to whether to get a dock with a DAC or not waste my money and just get a standard one that uses the DAC in the Ipod. If you think I should get a dock with a DAC please throw out a recommendation as to which one and where to look.
Thanks,
Ed
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Are you running itunes and a Mac?
If you are i would suggest an Apple TV. You can run digital out of that to a DAC.
Plus you can play AIFF or Apple Lossless files instead of MP3 files which sound a whole lot better.
Then you can sit in your Lazy Boy and use your iPod to pick songs to play, plus you can control the volume with your iPod.
If you use an iPod Dock you have to get up and down to pick songs on your little tiny iPod screen
If you are interested I can go into more detail.
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(http://images43.fotki.com/v504/photos/6/111916/8324195/itunesscreen-vi.jpg)
Here's a screen shot of my itunes menu. You can see the wireless devices on the left. Those are two Apple TV's
(http://images57.fotki.com/v512/photos/6/111916/8324195/itunesscreen2-vi.jpg)
In the lower right you can see where I can select from any or all of the 4 Apple TVs I have connected to this library
(http://images44.fotki.com/v1535/photos/6/111916/8324195/IMG_3127-vi.jpg)
Here you can see the same menu on my iPad ( or iPod) which you use to control song selection, devices to play and volume ( see the volume slder at the bottom of the iPad?
Definitely prefer the music quality of lossless formats over MP3 and easy of use with a wireless network over an iPod
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Looks really cool, but alas I am running a Windows machine. I have something similar but not as nice hooked up to my LR system. It's called "S-Air" made by sony. I just want a dock for the dining room system.
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I have three AppleTVs and 5 Airport Expresses connected to my Windows PC running iTunes.
Am not aware of any iPod dock that includes a built in DAC. They just pass the analog signal from the iPod's DAC to RCA out connections. OR, a few (Denon and Wadia)pass the digital signal from the iPod to an external DAC.
If you don't want to invest in getting a digital signal out of your iPod, at least get a cable to takes the analog signal from the docking port on the iPod (this bypasses the iPod's internal volume control) to get the best quality sound.
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The Wadia was what I was thinking. I guess I didn't read it fully. I'm going to change up my question a bit.
Would it be worth getting the Wadia and a DAC or just using the Ipod's DAC and bypassing the volume control?
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Now that you mention it, I have one of those iPod docks I bought. It didn't sound very good on my system. If I can find it I will mail it to you and you can try it.
Analog out of the iPod wasn't very good
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Just a little off the beaten path...
I recently bought a Synology home NAS Server to hold all my digital media for sharing between
devices I have at home (PC/MAC/DROID/BOXEE).
Its more than just a media server though as it has many built-in media capabilites; itunes server, dlna, slim server etc.
One of the cool things about it is that it has a USB port that allows you to connect a USB dac to play music directly from the server. I hooked up my FUBAR USB Dac, and it works like a champ!
They also provide Droid/iPhone apps to access the system. I can view pictures, control playback to the usb attached dac, or stream music directly to my device.
So far it has been working well.
www.synology.com (http://www.synology.com)
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The Wadia was what I was thinking. I guess I didn't read it fully. I'm going to change up my question a bit.
Would it be worth getting the Wadia and a DAC or just using the Ipod's DAC and bypassing the volume control?
My opinion is that Wadia dock is WAY overpriced for what it does. If you own an iPod, that means you already have a computer running iTunes. If you already have wireless router, then an AppleTV for $99 is the cheapest way to stream music wirelessly in your house. It outputs both analog and digital signals. The analog output is probably not any better than an iPod, but I'm guessing. The Toslink digital output when used with an external DAC or a receiver with a good internal DAC can sound very nice indeed.
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I know nothing about what you are looking for, but this is cool. :o :o
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1300040103&/Fat-Man-I-tube-dock-hybrid-int (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1300040103&/Fat-Man-I-tube-dock-hybrid-int)
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itunes uses the DMAP protocol on the subnet you are in to communicate - as long as the Winows machine running intunes is in that network you should be fine with itunes controlling the slaves.
You can even get away withe different subnets problem using port tunneling if you want to get geeky.
Each itunes 'server' (Windows or Mac) can have up to five specific slaves in any 24 hour period.
Pepe
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Even though I don't have an i*, I was curious about alternatives to the wadia.
After a few minutes of searching, I came up with this...
This one has promise:
Pure I-20 (http://www.pure.com/us/products/product.asp?Product=VL-61429&Category=&PageType=Specification) $99
Heres some other things I found:
HRT iStreamer (http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/istreamer/) $199 (Ok, this one is a DAC, it has analog only out but HRT is good stuff)
Onkyo ND-S1 (http://www.eu.onkyo.com/products/ND-S1.html) $250 I don't think its available in the US
Cycpherlabs AlgoRhythm Solo (http://www.cypherlabs.com/Home_Page.php) $580 This one is wayy out there
Also, If you have any SONOS devices, they offer the WD100 (http://sonos.com/products/accessories/wd100/Default.aspx?rdr=true&LangType=1033) that integrates with their system.
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itunes uses the DMAP protocol on the subnet you are in to communicate - as long as the Winows machine running intunes is in that network you should be fine with itunes controlling the slaves.
Actually iTunes uses Bonjour (Zeroconf) to discover devices. DMAP is the used to exchange song lists and stream the music.
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Thks for the correction MB, itunes uses Bonjour to discover shares, DMAP to exchange songs or other media (iphoto for example) and to stream it. My bad.... :-X
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After starting this thread I've been thinking more and more about getting the apple TV. What all would I need? Just the small Apple TV box and a DAC? It streams wireless? Could I sync my iTunes with an external HD and have access to my entire cd collection? What's the benefit or detriment to using the Apple TV vs say the Logitech Squeezebox?
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Ed, that is a great question. I can answer what I like and what I don't like about the Apple TV set up. Hopefully someone a little more technical can fill in as we go.
I use a Mac and I have an Apple Airport Extreme (APE) that I use for my wireless network. I threw out my Linksys wireless router after a year because it kept dropping connections and I HATE trying to make computer stuff work.
Using a Mac and The APE made life a lot easier for me and now I can add ATV's like candy. I just got another one to hook up today.
The features that I like are as follows:
1) I rip all my cds to AIFF or Apple Lossless format so I have high quality music on all of my systems.
2) I set the volume control on itunes at the mid way mark, then I set the volume on my pre amp at the level I pretty much want to hear. This arrangement lets me control the volume with my ipod or ipad on any system, whether it has a remote or not.
3) I can select songs or playlists on my ipad or ipod
4) itunes is pretty easy to use
What I don't like about the ATV set up is:
1) I can't or I haven't figured out how to copy SACD or DVD formatted music for 5.1 music formats.
2) It's Apple, life would be a lot easier if they supported more open source formats like FLAC or DVD audion
As far as I understand you need a 1) PC or Mac 2) wireless network then you can hang hard drives off your pc and use itunes.
You also need a DAC. My first one was a Cambridge Audio Magic Dac. The next three I bought were Eastern Audio's Tube DAC http://www.morningstaraudio.com/shop/category.asp?catid=6 (http://www.morningstaraudio.com/shop/category.asp?catid=6)
Understand this abouts DACS, under no circumstances would I ever dream of paying more than $100 for a DAC. I mean all it needs to do is connect your stereo to a digital source, right? The first one I heard was the Magic DAC. It sold for $420. The difference it made over using the DAC in the ATV was like night and day. This changed my opinion on why I would spend that kind of money on a DAC.
Then I heard the EE Tube DAC. Again a major improvement over the Magic DAC, now I am stuck spending $750 each time I need a new DAC.
It may seem overwhelming at first, but i would suggest starting small and adding features and components as you seem fit. The end result a sound system like you can only imagine.
I would think at a minimum to get started you would need a:
1)wireless network
2) An ATV
3) An inexpensive $100 DAC
Then you can tweak and upgrade your system. That's half the fun, it took me a year to get from my first AirPort Express to where I am today. As you make changes to your system, you will hear the difference and that is where the fun begins.
It would be nice if you lived near someone where you can go and see a set up. You'll pretty much want one once you see and hear it
Other solutions I would like to hear more about are:
Logitech Squeeze Box
Sonos
Synology Home NAS
Vortex Box
Tinpan
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Drink the Cool Aid Ed... 8)...Drink the Cool Aid Ed... 8)
Ed's going wireless
BilD uses a Logitech Squeeze box and really likes it. That's another system you should look at, it may be nicer, easier or less expensive than the ATV set up. I've just never used one so i can't comment.
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I agree with everything Tinpan said, except two things:
1. Tinpan's using a Mac, but if you use a PC to run iTunes, do not set the volume control at 50% in iTunes. At least that is what I've read and the reason is if you are running Windows XP there is something called the "kernel mixer" (or something like that) adulterates the audio quality. Not sure if this was fixed in Windows 7, but seem to remembering reading it may have been fixed. Have read that using any of the EQ settings in iTunes also poorly affects the fidelity.
2. Don't recall Tinpan mentioning you need a TV to connect the AppleTV to so you can perform the initial set up. No TV needed after that if you have an iPod Touch running the REMOTE app.
If I was starting from scratch today, I'd probably buy the Squeezebox Touch for $299. It will work with your iTunes library, AND also it plays 24 bit/96 kHz high resolution audio files. Nothing Apple makes will do higher resolution than 16/44.1 via wireless streaming.
But, if you want to get started on the cheap, a $99 Apple TV is hard to beat.
Both the AppleTV and Squeezebox Touch have internal DACs, so you don't need a better quality outboard DAC immediately.
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That's right, you do need HDMI to a TV to set it up.
Did not know about the volume control on PC's. Interesting.