Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: scorpio333 on October 31, 2014, 09:00:39 PM
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I've got a pair of Sansui SP-1200's. I like how they sound…sometimes. I run them on my 10w tube amp. At low volume (below 25%), eh ok. Get right up close to them, eh not so much. Sit back and turn it up and they sound pretty good to my ears. I pulled the rear panel off to see what was going on inside. I cleaned the switches, though they didn't have any noise which switching. Then I saw the caps - Bi Polar - that explains it. Good and evil all in one, like most of my ex's.
Visually they look clean, but also look easy enough to replace. Given their age, I'm going look around and order some and see if it makes any difference.
(http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq175/3scorpio33/IMG_0079_zps213c18d5.jpg)
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Can't hurt, and you will probably be pleasantly surprised when you finish
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I believe OBG just got done rehabbing a pair of those. Maybe he will weigh in.
I recommend these caps. Cheaper and faster ship than Parts Express, very good caps.
http://www.mouser.com/Nichicon/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors-Leaded/ES-Series/_/N-1z0zlbmZ75hqwZ1z0ynqj (http://www.mouser.com/Nichicon/Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitors-Leaded/ES-Series/_/N-1z0zlbmZ75hqwZ1z0ynqj)
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Changing to metalized film or film and foil from polar electrolytic will be a significant improvement.
Caps are cheap. Solder is too. Go for it, dude! >:D
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Also, you might want to swap out those resistors for Mills 1% or another quality non-inductive resistor.
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STaL, that link gave me nightmares! I came across a post buried on AK that had links to PE. Switched the 4.7 to 3.3 and it's under $30.
Jantzen 2.2uF 400V Z-Standard Capacitor
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039)
Jantzen 4.7uF 400V Z-Standard Capacitor
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039)
Jantzen 10uF 400V Z-Standard Capacitor
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=60902039)
Baby steps there 8w, baby steps. It's on the radar. I think I'll do the caps first and maybe if I don't completely screw up the soldering, I'll do resistors down the road some.
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Find a broken VCR or something of the like. Practice desoldering caps and other parts from the PCB boards that you find inside of it. No harm, no foul. No charge, either.
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If you're going to do it, do it right. Change the caps to either Sonicap Gen I or Clarity ESA, both are better than Janzten caps. Absolutely change the resistors to Mills 10 watt and don't use the Vishay-Mills made in Mexico. Sonic Craft still has good stock of NOS Mills made in the USA. You should also seriously consider upgrading the inductors to Janzten air core, which unlike their caps, are excellent.
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STaL, that link gave me nightmares! I came across a post buried on AK that had links to PE.
What is it about the link that gave you nightmares?
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If you're going to do it, do it right. Change the caps to either Sonicap Gen I or Clarity ESA, both are better than Janzten caps.
Okay, some caps sound better than others, but the differences are subtle. The caps he has in there now are about 40 years old and well past their life expectancy. It is almost a given that they are out of spec. Even a fiddy cent cap functioning at the right value will get him 90% of the way. The boutique stuff will get the last 10%.
I plan to use better caps in my Hereseys, but I would question if those Sansuis will ever be good enough to justify the expense. Just my opinion, of course.
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Then I saw the caps - Bi Polar - that explains it. Good and evil all in one, like most of my ex's.
I just re-read this. In case you didn't know, all xover caps are bipolar. They have to be to pass the AC to the speakers. If you use polarized caps in an xover, it won't work (as I found out the hard way some time ago).
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What is it about the link that gave you nightmares?
Too many numbers and filters and out of stock and 17 week lead times. Perhaps tomorrow with coffee it will become clear.
F1, I get it, I've heard it from my dad for as long as I can remember. Putting $4000 tires on a Cavalier won't make it a racecar. It's a point of diminishing returns, these are Sansui's we're talking about. I'm half impressed I wasn't run off the board just for admitting I like Sansui's. They don't have the best reputation. I like the way they sound, but not to the point "they'll never leave this house". I'd sell them if I thought I could and try something else, but I'm not there yet. If $30 makes them sound a bit better and keeps me from searching for replacements, great. If not, I've spent $30 on worse stuff and I'll keep looking for the next step up.
The bi-polar just struck me as funny in a twisted humor way.
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What is it about the link that gave you nightmares?
Too many numbers and filters and out of stock and 17 week lead times. Perhaps tomorrow with coffee it will become clear.
There is a check box near the top that says "stocked". Check that and you will get rid of all of the out of stock varieties. Then just choose the needed capacitance and it should narrow down to just a few choices.
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Putting $4000 tires on a Cavalier won't make it a racecar.
True, but you would be able to corner 10 to 20mph faster, stop shorter too.
It's a point of diminishing returns, these are Sansui's we're talking about.
I recently upgraded a pair of original Baby Advents, which have very basic crossovers and will certainly never be great speakers. I used Clarity ESA caps, Mills resistors, new boards with point to point wiring, upgraded the chassis wire, added a internal brace, installed new binding posts and plates, replaced the grill cloth and refinished the end caps. I knew that I'd never get the money back out of them, but wanted to hear what they could do. The sound quality improvement was impressive.
Anyway, use good film and foil caps of your choice and budget, but definitely upgrade the resistors as they play a bigger role than I think you realize and they are not expensive.
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I call them "While the iron's hot" upgrades. You go in to fix one issue component, you might as well just gut the whole thing and replace all of the components. Shipping works out better on a per-component basis when you get more stuff anyway.
Have fun with it!
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OK, you guys convinced me to do the resistors so I ordered them. They're backordered, so I'll get the caps done, then resistors when they arrive.
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I've learned the hard way that replacing electrolitic caps with poly XX film caps may not lead to your desired results.
Just use good quality electrolitic caps. Film caps have a much lower ESR and may pass much more
hi freg energy than the original caps resulting in a brighter sound. You may like it...you may not.
Capacitor ESR is not a myth. Its measureable and may have an undesired affect.
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How about metallized polypropylene? To be honest, I'm not sure if those are film or electrolitic.
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Those are film caps too. Not trying to talk you out of film caps but I agree with STAL's comment that good elctrolitics will get
you 90% ( at least) of the way there. Madisound has good caps, cheap too. If you do decide to use film caps you might have to add
a few ohms of resistance to compensate for the film caps low ESR......say 1 to 5 ohms as an example. If this is your first recap keep it simple
and go for good quality bipolar electrolitics.
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How about metallized polypropylene? To be honest, I'm not sure if those are film or electrolitic.
Metalized polypropylene is exactly what it says it is. Think of it as a club sandwich consisting of electrode layers made from metalized film and dielectric layers made from plastic or a similar dielectric material. Film and foil caps are constructed such that the metalized electrode layers are separate layers of metallic foil before the capacitor is assembled. Metalized film capacitors differ as the electrolytic material (usually a thin metalized film) is applied to the dielectric layers during assembly.
In general, both metalized polypropylene and film / foil caps tend to sound "better" than electrolytic caps.
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OK, you guys convinced me to do the resistors so I ordered them. They're backordered, so I'll get the caps done, then resistors when they arrive.
Where did you order from and what products did you order?
As for electrolytic caps being 90% of poly/film/foil for crossovers, I have to disagree. There are some very good electrolytic caps, such as Mundorf and Elna, but they are polar and not meant to be used in crossovers.
I also disagree with the notion that the lower ESR of a ploy/film/foil cap is the cause of brightness. I would venture to say that your undesired results were due to the choice of cap rather than the type of cap. For example, Solen Fast caps are infamously bad in a high frequency crossover circuit while surprisingly good in electronics. In another example, I replaced the high frequency electrolytic cap in my office speakers with a good quality film/foil, which tamed the brightness of the metal dome tweeter.
The bottom line is all caps have a flavor regardless of the type.
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I ordered jantzen caps and Dayton resistors from Parts Express. These aren't Tannoy speakers so I don't think it'll kill them, if it ends up not sounding good I'll chalk it up as experience and go a different direction. I should have them in a day or two so we'll find out soon.
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Ok well, the Janzten caps (hopefully you got the Superior Z's) will be better than what you've got now, but the Dayton resistors are the exact same as the ceramic blocks you have now. Spend a little extra money and get Mills.
FYI, the new caps will need to burn in, so don't judge the sound quality until you get about 200 hours on them.
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200 hours?
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In my experience, capacitor burn in seems to be hocus pocus. I hear the difference immediately when replacing capacitors that have some age to them. With the fancy caps, they are all measured at the factory and already to spec. If they are to spec, then they are to spec. The if the properties of a capacitor change measurably in such a short period of time (200 hrs or what have you) then there's something wrong with them.
A fun experiment is to recap one channel and go back and forth listening in mono, so you can really nitpick the a/b results.
Generally, if a company says you need an excessively long break in, that means that your ears are breaking in, not the product.
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I've used nothing but Solen's for the past couple of years with great success. Definite burn in time but nothing like 200 hours. :o
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I haven't done a lot of recapping, but with carts, I find like 20 hours. That may well be for the mechanical suspension to break in.
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The caps are out for delivery. Resistors are a day behind. I plan to do caps on one speaker and compare them.
As for the resistors, I tried to get Mills as recommended above but PE didn't have them so I went with Daytons. They'll be fine for my kabuki speakers. Maybe I'll do one crossover with the Daytons and then find some Mills for the other side. Then everyone can come over and tell me which speaker has which resistors? >:D
This all just fun for me and a learning process. I'm trying to not take things too seriously and let my ears have fun.
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200 hours?
For caps such as Sonicap, Clarity, Obbligato, Jupiter, etc., absolutely. Mundorf and Duland caps take 300 and V-Caps take 500.
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In my experience, capacitor burn in seems to be hocus pocus. I hear the difference immediately when replacing capacitors that have some age to them.
Of course you do, but that's got nothing to do with burn in.
With the fancy caps, they are all measured at the factory and already to spec. If they are to spec, then they are to spec. The if the properties of a capacitor change measurably in such a short period of time (200 hrs or what have you) then there's something wrong with them.
That's seriously flawed logic. Measurements cannot tell you how something sounds, nor can they tell you if burn in has occured. Take tubes for example, just like caps they measure the same brand new and 200 hours later, but they sound very different after 200 hours.
Generally, if a company says you need an excessively long break in, that means that your ears are breaking in, not the product.
That's just......no. Perhaps I can prove that to you. After upgrading some, let's say crossovers, I'll listen and take notes. I then let the speakers play for some 200 hours or so in a room that is closed off, so I am not actually listening. I then sit down and take more notes, which I then compare with my original notes. The differences are consistently obvious.
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The caps are in, resistors haven't arrived. I did one speaker and hooked it back up. Much cleaner clarity. Listening from six inches away revealed much less "full range" from each driver. Finished the second and hooked it up, I'm happy. The sound isn't harsh or overbearing.
The 200 hour burn in countdown is on I suppose. While that theory or science is split on real or not, All I can say is if my speakers sound better to my ears in 200 hours bring it on!
Info have a question on the burn in. is it 200 hours at audible volume? Mid? Loud? Not likely to let them run for 8 1/2 straight days. Just curious.
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That's just......no.
We'll just agree to disagree.
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Info have a question on the burn in. is it 200 hours at audible volume? Mid? Loud? Not likely to let them run for 8 1/2 straight days. Just curious.
As long as the drivers are producing sound the caps are charging and discharging, which means they are burning in. You can throw a heavy blanket over them to muffle the sound if you want.
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Info have a question on the burn in. is it 200 hours at audible volume? Mid? Loud? Not likely to let them run for 8 1/2 straight days. Just curious.
As long as the drivers are producing sound the caps are charging and discharging, which means they are burning in. You can throw a heavy blanket over them to muffle the sound if you want.
Or you could wire them with opposite polarities, run them in mono, and place them facing one another under the blanket. That'll make even less "noise".