Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Audio Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ajdma2za on April 02, 2011, 07:20:16 PM
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So here's my setup (I ended up going with an Oppo BDP-95 for those who knew I was thinking about buying a component CD Player):
If this would be better answered in a different category, let me know, thanks!
Klipsch RF-83
Klipsch RC-64
Klipsch RS-7
Klipsch RT-10D
Sunfire True Sub Mark II
Denon AVR-4308
Parasound 5250
PS3
Oppo BDP-95
Panamax Power Center
I am mainly a home theater enthusiast. Lately, I've been interested in getting better stereo sound, and I'd like to use my setup for both.
I'm using the pre-outs on my Denon to go into the Parasound, and the quality in sound has been amazing switching. I've noticed a difference.
However, I'm not noticing a different using the analog stereo output on the Oppo BDP-95 to the Denon AVR-4308. Someone on another forum suggested that my Denon maybe something converting the Analog signal to Digital on my AVR, and thus not utilizing the Sabre 32-bit DAC the Oppo is equipped with. I don't know how to turn this off on my Denon, if that's even the case.
Currently how everything is, I haven't seen much improvement in audio quality using the Oppo via analog OR digital vs using a PS3. It's almost identical. I've used Esperanza Spalding and various Pink Floyd albums as well as hip hop. I've heard no improvement. No difference.
Could this be because my speakers aren't good enough to recognize a difference? Could it be because my AVR is in fact "too good" in terms of it's processing? Is the Sabre 32-bit DAC just as good as the AL-24 Processing the Denon AVR has?
I realize I can't do stereo outputs from the Oppo directly to my Parasound. I just figured I'd enjoy analog "bliss", but so far, I haven't. I haven't noticed any difference.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I've referred to the manual for Denon and Oppo, found nothing. I've sent Denon an email, waiting for a reply. Oppo is closed, I'll call them Monday inquiring for feedback.
Even the video quality on the Oppo wasn't much better than the PS3. I noticed a little difference, but I might've been tricking myself. The Denon has it's own video processing too, so could running the Oppo through the Denon be "downgrading" the video if the HDMI settings on the Denon aren't set to pass-through (how do I change that anyway? and by changing that, I'd lose my lossless audio, right?). I would literally pay for someone in my area to do installation and show me things I don't know--but even my local home theater stores (not Best Buy--I work there, this is beyond us lol) can't seem to help. The salesman there told me a CD player is useless. I just need help!
Thanks!
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The Denon will not be converting the analog out of your Oppo to digital. Are you using the Direct or Pure Direct mode on your Denon? This will yield the best stereo sound based on my experience with high end Denon AVRs.
Chances are the PS3 is a pretty good player and the Denon may sound no better. Just a guess on my part though.
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I didn't try the direct mode on the Denon, but I did on the Oppo. So no matter what, the Denon won't convert the analog signal to digital? Someone on AVS said that the higher end Denon AVR's do that, such as the 5308, and being the 4308 was a model underneath, I figured it might do that.
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Well, I know nothing of your Denon, however, I don't suspect that anyone would engineer a system that intentionally converts from analog to digital back to analog. As the bouncer in Knocked Up put it, "That's just crazy."
I don't know how much of a difference you WOULD notice using either component or input method. If you're concerned that your speakers aren't sensitive or revealing enough to exploit any differences that may or may not be occurring, spend $60 on a used set of Grado SR-60's. Plug them into your Denon and experiment. If there's a difference, you'll notice. Then you're left with a wonderful set of cans! ;D ;D
As far as the CD player being outdated, I'd agree in terms of the mainstream. Most of us are not very mainstream. I'm searching for a wire recorder. Most of us play vinyl regularly and a few of us are even cassette fanatics.
If it's something that you'll enjoy, it's timeless.
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Your Parasound amp only accepts analog signals. So if the Denon was converting the analog signal fro the Oppo to digital, how would the Parasound amp be playing at all?
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I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but the truth isn't always pretty. The CD playback I've heard on the Oppo wasn't all that good.
That said, as long as you are using the analog connections, the CDP is using its DAC. However, that is not the end of the story. The pre amp section in your AVR is still in the signal path and, at least in part, limiting the end result. Let me put that another way, if you ran a $10k CDP thru your AVR, you are not going to hear what that $10k CDP is even close to sounding like. Another area often overlooked are the cables. Generic patch cords and speaker cables will seriously limit the sound quality.
Do you have a friend with a dedicated stereo pre-amp that would let you borrow it to compare with your AVR?
The Denon has it's own video processing too, so could running the Oppo through the Denon be "downgrading" the video if the HDMI settings on the Denon aren't set to pass-through
That very well could be your issue with the video performance as the Oppo is top notch in that area.
The salesman there told me a CD player is useless.
He is an idiot.
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Truth is definitely what I want to hear. Is the NAD that is like, $799 retail better? It only has a 24-bit DAC, I think it's the 565 I'm not sure.
Should I buy a dedicated stereo pre-amp with HT pass through?
The only reason I bought the Oppo was I figured for $1000 if the CD playback with SACD, Blu-ray, Blu-ray 3D, and dual HDMI's was a steal for the price. If someone could guide me in a new direction I'd be grateful.
I'm using 10-guage speaker wire from Blue Jeans Cable, and really thick analog cables, and other cables Monster, since I get them cheap. I played around with my AVR last night for three hours, and read manuals and forums for Denon and not one instance was there a mention of turning any processor off in my AVR. I think it's impossible.
Let me know!
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Truth is definitely what I want to hear. Is the NAD that is like, $799 retail better? It only has a 24-bit DAC, I think it's the 565 I'm not sure.
Let me know!
"Only" a 24 bit DAC is nothing to worry about. The bitrate of the conversion process should not be a significant concern. There are competent multi-bit DAC's and there are competent single bit DAC's. Some of the best CD players on Earth use a single bit DAC's. Look for something that's well built, and has a high signal to noise ratio. Typically, higher is better. Speaking of which... ;D :o 8) :P *Cough*
I'm not sure what you mean by "truth". If your aim is to extract the most faithful reproduction of the source material as is humanly detectable, you'll be joining the countless others who are on that crusade. Don't be disappointed if you never quite put your fingers on the grail.
If you want the "truth" in terms of advice regarding your components, that's an entirely different ball of wax. F1nut is a much more honest fellow than myself in that capacity. ;D
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Using the Pure Direct mode on the receiver should turn off any audio or video processing that is occurring within the receiver.
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Ajdma2za, before anything else at this point, is there a way for you to try a 2 channel pre amp? Maybe a friend or are you close to Tom's shop?
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The pure direct mode will turn off any processing? I think I've tried that on the PS3 plugged into the AVR via HDMI vs the Oppo plugged into the AVR via analog, and I didn't hear much difference. I'll try again.
I'm not close to Tom's Shop, I'm in NY, about 5 hours away lol. I was debating buying a Parasound 2200 Pre-Amp because I think it has HT bypass, which if I'm assuming correctly means I can connect it through the AVR and plug the Oppo's analog output into the Parasound 2200 pre-amp's inputs? Is that right?
Someone else on AVS said modern day DAC's sound good, even if it's a 24-bit vs a 32-bit, and I won't tell the difference unless I have 10,000$ plus in gear. I don't think the Oppo BDP-95 is aimed toward that price group though. From the reviews and internet chatter I've read, I figured the Oppo should be an improvement in both audio and video vs my PS3 (only true way to tell would be to compare side by side on two exact TV's I assume. I haven't noticed a night and day difference at home, plugged into my AVR or directly into my TV. I can go to Best Buy and plug them into two similar TV's, but my managers might get mad, especially if there's traffic, even if I'm off the clock.)
I would even debate buying a new pre-amp processor, any ideas of any good ones up to $1000 vs my Denon AVR-4308? I'd love to keep the Denon if I could, I guess I just "want to" hear the difference... even if it means going 100% all the way separates.
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I could probably just bypass any and all issues with the Denon possibly doing analog to digital by having a 2-channel stereo pre-amp right? If so, Would the Parasound 2100 be good or is there something better under a $1000?
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What do you propose will be doing the analog to digital conversion?
typically it is the other way around. CD music is digital and either your cd player or receiver converts it to analog depending on how they are connected.
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If I use a 2-channel pre-amp (Parasound 2100) the Oppo 95 will be doing the DAC, and not *possibly* the Denon, even though the Oppo is plugged in via analog. I think somehow the Denon is either converting the analog to digital, or it's using it's DAC somehow, and the Oppo is acting as transport somehow, even though it's via analog.
I'm also looking at the Onkyo PR-SC5508, which has a 32-bit DAC inside, which, if that's the case, I may get that if I can sell my Denon for $500. Choices... lol
I have to somehow talk to Denon about the AVR and what it's doing with the DAC signal.
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I could probably just bypass any and all issues with the Denon possibly doing analog to digital by having a 2-channel stereo pre-amp right? If so, Would the Parasound 2100 be good or is there something better under a $1000?
Right, a 2 channel pre amp with an HT bypass would remove the Denon AVR from the equation. I'm going to suggest one of these, http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1306349222&/Vtl-2.5-linestage-remote--tube (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1306349222&/Vtl-2.5-linestage-remote--tube)
Used should run $900 or so, but make sure it comes with the HT bypass because not all of them do. It'll smoke the Parasound because tubes rule!
I think somehow the Denon is either converting the analog to digital, or it's using it's DAC somehow, and the Oppo is acting as transport somehow, even though it's via analog.
I don't believe that is possible.
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Another thought, how many hours do you have on the Oppo?
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Roughly 5 hours
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I think somehow the Denon is either converting the analog to digital, or it's using it's DAC somehow, and the Oppo is acting as transport somehow, even though it's via analog.
I don't believe that is possible.
It is a surround receiver after all. In order for it to apply Surround effects via the DSP, it must be a digital signal so if its an analog input, it must be converted first. It may very well be that it always passes through the DSP even if there is no surround effect in which case it will perform ADC->DSP->DAC on an analog input.
I looked into the "Direct" mode on your receiver and the manual only says that it bypasses the tone controls and nothing about bypassing DSP surround effects. That said, I did read elsewhere that Direct mode does indeed bypass the DSP circuitry so it is definitely worth a shot.
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On a side note, the receiver has a 24-bit DAC in it. When would the receiver's DAC be used? When I'm plugging something in with a digital connection? Or when the receiver is in stereo mode?
I did try direct mode on both the Oppo and the AVR, and I didn't hear any noticeable difference. I've been thinking about buying an Integra Pre-amp/pro that has a 32-bit burr brown DAC in it; meaning I wouldn't need the Oppo, and I could just use any CD player as a transport, right? If that's the case, and I use a component CD player as a transport, can I literally use any CD player and it'll sound the same as a transport, or are there still other things to look at?
Denon hasn't responded to me either yet regarding if the receiver is in fact converting the analog because of the reasons you just mentioned (ADC-DSP-DAC). I may call Oppo tomorrow. Otherwise, I'll just return it, and buy a pre-amp/pro like the Integra or maybe even just a 2-channel pre-amp. I don't know. I don't know much about pre-amps.
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afaik, the DAC is needed when a digital signal from a source is used (cd/dvd/sacd) or when dsp effects are set regardless of the input type.
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Roughly 5 hours
In that case it's not even close to being burned in. Give it 200 hours.
On a side note, the receiver has a 24-bit DAC in it. When would the receiver's DAC be used? When I'm plugging something in with a digital connection? Or when the receiver is in stereo mode?
I did try direct mode on both the Oppo and the AVR, and I didn't hear any noticeable difference. I've been thinking about buying an Integra Pre-amp/pro that has a 32-bit burr brown DAC in it; meaning I wouldn't need the Oppo, and I could just use any CD player as a transport, right? If that's the case, and I use a component CD player as a transport, can I literally use any CD player and it'll sound the same as a transport, or are there still other things to look at?
You're still overlooking that fact that the pre amp section in an AVR or pre/pro is not going to be anywhere near as good as a dedicated stereo pre amp. That and there's more to good sound than the DAC. Such things as a high quality power supply, choke regulation, jitter and circuit design play important roles as well. Esoteric felt the transport itself was so important that they made one built like a Sherman tank.
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I am speaking purely from a practical standpoint without pretending to be technical, but from what I understand of my own past setups, perhaps it will be of some use. These observations come from a short lived effort to craft a multi-channel SACD audio system.
When I first set up my system, I ran a Denon 3910 into a Denon AVR 5700, and eventually switched to an Onkyo 906 receiver. (Btw, the Denon is much better musically).
Digital (HDMI or Coaxial) output from the player to either receiver = Processing by the receiver's onboard DAC with a choice of any supplied codecs (eg. stereo, Dolby, Neo6).
Analog output (2ch or 6ch) from the player to receiver = Processing by the player's onboard DAC in the disc's native or default codec. (This is how I played DVD Audio discs)
In the analog scenario, you can choose to have the receiver apply room correction (eg. Audyssey), but not audio codec processing.
So before you get your shorts in a bunch over the DAC, you might want to do what others have recommended and consider upgrading to or testing a good 2ch preamp and then evaluate your player.
Someone please correct me if I that didn't make any sense, I just had a long day and a bottle of wine.
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Ok, so my only question is should I buy a stereo pre-amp or would buying a new pre-amp/pro like the Integra 80.2 and replacing my AVR all together be a good idea? Or is it not necessary? If a stereo pre-amp is the universal opinion of what I should do, is the Parasound 2100 good? Or is there something else out there better in the same price range? Someone showed me a link from Audiogon but I'm not familiar with that brand.
Really, thanks for all the advice guys! I've just come to the point now where the Oppo isn't sounding different than the PS3, at least on the Denon. And I guess I'm thinking if I bought the Integra 80.2, I could return the Oppo and sell my Denon, and just use a CD player as a transport and let the Integra do the work. I'm trying to figure what would be more cost efficient I suppose. Plus the Integra has the HDMI 1.4 inputs which my Denon does not, and I do have a 3D TV. That matters very little; I'd rather do what's the best bang for the buck:
Option A
Return The oppo for $1000
Sell my Denon for $350-550
Buy the Integra 80.2 for $2199, or hopefully on sale someplace.
(Spend an additional $650-800, and use the PS3 as a transport)
Option B
Buy a stereo pre-amp for $500-1000
Either way, I'm spending additional cash. Would a stereo pre-amp for that ballpark be better than the Denon AVR?
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Welcome to the wonderful world of the audiophile. It is a journey that will continue until you run out of money, die or both. LOL.
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I don't like talking to brickwalls, so I'm out. Good luck.
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For $900, you might be able to build a decent 2 channel system and keep the stereo seperate from the home theater. I faced this problem a number of years ago-was never happy with the stereo comming from the home theater (actually built the home theater from the stereo and then ended up taking it apart again). I imagine there are other 2 channel fans on this forum who have struggled with the same thing.
A nice vintage stereo intergrated amp and a pair of 6" 2-ways for $900 or less is achievable and should be a ton of fun to pull together. If the disc player has a volume control and no phono is needed, a player, power amp and speakers is enough and should sound outstanding.
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It does have a volume control, and I actually hooked up it up that way tonight and it sounded good, still the same as going through my Denon AVR though lol. I spent a good portion of the day talking to a different home audio store in Syracuse, NY, and that guy there made it sound as if I need a new pre-amp/processor or a stereo pre-amp to hear a difference; that I won't utilizing my AVR as a pre-amp. As much as I'm willing to test this out, I don't think I have the funds to do so. I'll probably just return the Oppo, stick to what I was using, since it sounds the same anyway, and build a 2-channel system. I still can't get over the fact that a stereo pre-amp will make the Oppo sound MUCH better than an AVR, since all it's doing is volume control and a little EQ. I guess I just don't understand. Or maybe I've just reached the fullest potential of my speakers and newly acquired power amp. I don't know. The guy in Syracuse said he's actually running the Integra 80.2 on a Parasound Halo Amp, which isn't too far away from how the Parasound 5250 sounds. I might check that out, depending on what speakers he's using too. Same guy did say using an NAD stereo pre-amp would be a lot less of a "bright" sound than the Denon, and since Klipsch towers tend to be brighter, it might be a good combination. Any thoughts on that?
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Any time a component is added to the signal chain, the signal is degraded (one might debate the extent to which the change is audible). I have seperate stereo and home theater rigs. When I connect my disc player direct to my amps, it sounds better than when it runs through the pre amp, and this is in a high end, analog two channel set up. I just made a substantial upgrade to my preamp and while there is noticeably less insertion loss than with the old unit, the CD player still sounds better direct to the amps.
If running the disc player direct to the amp in your set up doesn't sound any different than through the pre-pro, then the Denon must be one hell of a unit or there there is something wrong with the OPPO or how it's configured. Alternatively, maybe the source material doesn't reveal the differences, or the speakers may be a limiting factor. If you can, I suggest trying different players in your various configurations, trying the OPPO on someone else's set up and listening to the most revealing music you have or can borrow. Swapping the speakers may also change things.
This is the joy of the Audio habit (addiction?). No matter what, just be sure to have fun.
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After talking to a few different shops, I'm going this route:
Selling Denon once I can afford:
Marantz 7005 or Integra 80.2
Buying:
Parasound Halo P3 (JC 2 would be awesome--but I liked the reviews on the P3 over the NAD at a similar price. If anyone knows of anything better and cheaper or same price, let me know)
Nad 565 CD Player
Denon replied today stating that even while plugging a device in via analog, the DAC is still being used in the receiver, and to turn it off you have to go into pure direct mode, but even still, it'll still be sending some kind of current which will effect even analog out on a CD player. Plus, I've heard there's a lot of people buying into Oppo and half are realizing it's all talk and no game. I like the reviews on the NAD CD player, even the Cambridge at a similar price point.
I think once I make these final upgrades I'll be maxed out at what I'll be able to "get out" of my Klipsch speakers, unless of course I got the Parasound Halo JC 2, that pre-amp just seems to have heavenly reviews all around it.