Vintage HiFi Audio Forum

Audio Discussion => DIY => Topic started by: Reverend on February 17, 2013, 09:25:38 PM

Title: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 17, 2013, 09:25:38 PM: I've wanted to make a pair of mini or modified ALIII's for quite some time. The original idea was to use the 12" woofers from my silvers and make an L shaped speaker with the woofers facing out the sides/ribbon in the front. After the success of the JL driver in the Bearjew's ALIII's I kind of rethought this. The only issue I have with the originals, besides the stock woofer, was the down firing driver. I wanted a front facing driver but keep the overall size small. So, I decided to use a 8" RE Audio subwoofer.

Overall dimensions are 58" high x 9.5" wide by 14.75" deep. The box that will house the woofer has a .75" slotted port on the backside. I read multiple things about ported vs. sealed and a round vs. slotted port for the driver and decided to go this route. The front and sides are made from .75" oak, the bottom and backside are made from a doubled up piece of .5" plywood. So far everything is cut/glued and waiting to dry. Tomorrow I will be sanding then applying a red mahogany stain. More pictures to come.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo2-1_zps388f51c8.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo5_zps3d4ec331.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo4_zps05a27bdb.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo3-1_zpsaefb35c2.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo1-1_zpsfac4ea5d.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: schwarcw on February 17, 2013, 09:51:33 PM: Very nice Rev! This will be an interesting project to watch. You do very nice work.

Regards,

Carl
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: thuffman03 on February 18, 2013, 09:44:19 AM: Looking very good!

What are you going to use as a crossover?

Also, you should talk with Toy Maker on the Carveraudio site. He has built at least two different versions or updates to the ALIII's. He would have some good insite or can answer any questions.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 18, 2013, 10:14:05 AM: I agree a front-facing woofer has a better chance to approach the superb bass-mid-bass of the Silvers, in my opinion. The Silvers cross over to the three woofs at 120hz, whereas the AL-IIIs cross at 150Hz - so the ribbons are really moving in the Silvers at the low end. One suggestion could be to start off with the original x-over, keeping it outside the box while tweaking until they sound the way you want them (or make it an outboard x-over). I suspect the magic bass in the Silvers (and all the Amazings) has more to do with the woofers in open baffle (whatever the right term is for open-back) - hard to duplicate otherwise.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Kingman on February 18, 2013, 12:58:54 PM: Interesting....keep the pics coming!!!! ;)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 18, 2013, 01:51:30 PM: Or go active x-over.

:P
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 18, 2013, 10:12:45 PM: I'll be using the crossover from the silvers. It will be housed in the sub cabinet but I will use a cork gasket to make the top removable. I'm pretty sure i'll have to play around with the port size as well. The first two pics are of the first coat of stain. The last three are mockup. The drivers are mounted and everything is coming together. I'm using rough cut stone slabs under the base. I'm still deciding what shape to make the dust covers.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo1-1_zps17c5ea49.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo2-1_zpsbad330c4.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo3-1_zps3bb2a144.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo4_zpsc6183edb.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo5_zps2cce4d73.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 18, 2013, 10:59:17 PM: There is something about building speakers that takes the audio fun into a separate level of greatness. The problem is that getting your money back is tough, as potential buyers get turned off by the home-made connotations. But the fun of doing it is worth it. I think I will plan a project soon - I've always wanted a custom made center channel.

You seem fond of sandwiching plywood with glue to make the cabine walls thicker (I think I saw you sandwiched like 6 planks to make a turntable base). I should try that as opposed to buying extra wood.

OBG
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: mbskeam on February 18, 2013, 11:05:43 PM: lookin good..... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: thuffman03 on February 19, 2013, 11:40:49 AM: Looking really good!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: StephenWVU on February 19, 2013, 02:42:29 PM: Excellent! Keep the pictures coming and I can't wait to hear a review on how they sound.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 19, 2013, 04:12:05 PM: Agree with Stephen - the pictures are worth whatever effort it takes to snap em, keep posting. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Kingman on February 19, 2013, 05:48:32 PM: I WANNA HEAR EM!!!! 8) 8) 8) ;)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: thuffman03 on February 20, 2013, 09:31:35 AM: Quote from: Kingman on February 19, 2013, 05:48:32 PM
I WANNA HEAR EM!!!! 8) 8) 8) ;)

Then get your @ss up to Pittsburgh!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: bearjew on February 20, 2013, 09:41:43 AM: Holy shit! Front firing woofers! Brilliant! Can't wait to see how they sound in comparison to mine!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 20, 2013, 09:49:23 AM: I was wiring last night and came across a problem. The one ribbon isn't working. Even when i put the leads directly to it nothing. So, i'll have to un-mount it tonight and see what the issue is. I have the ribbon wires going through a small hole into the woofer cabinet. My guess is one came loose or the two ends are touching each other somehow.

Otherwise, they are almost done except for the front grills. Here's a few pics of my initial wiring setup. Notice that the cross over was so big I had to split it into two pieces to fit.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo1-1_zpsf2dc65b6.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo2-1_zpsc1166f6d.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: bearjew on February 20, 2013, 10:01:45 AM: nice! when are you bringing them to the shop for us to hear them?
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: thuffman03 on February 20, 2013, 11:14:36 AM: Quote from: bearjew on February 20, 2013, 10:01:45 AM
nice! when are you bringing them to the shop for us to hear them?

Rev's basement is a good place to listen to them! Looks like there will be a party! LOL
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 20, 2013, 11:23:47 AM: Yeah, need to have a get together one of these days. I'm down to one set of speakers, so these will be my primary's.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 20, 2013, 08:02:00 PM: A few more pics.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo11_zps5eb1f4d4.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo21_zps8e69c115.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 20, 2013, 09:49:44 PM: How is the sound?
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: StephenWVU on February 20, 2013, 11:34:26 PM: That is what I am waiting to know! Certainly a cool project.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on February 21, 2013, 09:11:15 AM: If they sound as good as they look you really have something there.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Falcon on February 21, 2013, 10:11:14 AM: Nice work Rev. How do they sound??
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 21, 2013, 10:31:31 AM: Only one is currently complete, the other is having a ribbon issue. I did listen to the complete one and thought it sounded pretty good. The bass was punchy but had a nice low end. I did not play around with placement/eq/settings/etc. and won't until the other is finished. I plan on doing the grill covers this weekend.

With any new project I found numerous flaws and issues that a second build would resolve. But, I'm a lazy man and will stick with these for the time being. I used a glue and dowel method thinking that this would work structurally well. Not the case. The front panel is so heavy that there is stress on the areas it's mounted to the base/cabinet. To offset this I had to add screws to the front which I wasn't planning on doing. But, the grill covers will hide this. If I had to do it again, I would make the sub cabinet one piece and the front panel another. Also, the removable top has created more issues then it was intended to resolve. I would not do this again. It's sealed well but not perfectly.

Hopefully, I should have a full report on the sound later this weekend or next week.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: BB3 on February 21, 2013, 04:11:24 PM: My goodness is that impressive work you're doing there Rev.

I'm blown away.........Bill
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OCCD on February 21, 2013, 08:32:33 PM: Quote from: thuffman03 on February 20, 2013, 11:14:36 AM
Quote from: bearjew on February 20, 2013, 10:01:45 AM
nice! when are you bringing them to the shop for us to hear them?

Rev's basement is a good place to listen to them! Looks like there will be a party! LOL

I will bring some Trout beer!

Flyers SUCK!!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Slim-Shaddy on February 21, 2013, 08:46:01 PM: I'm excited to hear them. When's the party?
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Kingman on February 21, 2013, 10:32:32 PM: Impromtu party was tonight...spoke with the bearJew....seemed to be a good fellow...usual shit from OCCD....BTW...automatics are good at the range I mentioned! ;)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 25, 2013, 01:16:11 PM: Tom is letting me borrow one of his ribbons until mine gets fixed. I popped the spare in on Friday night and wow do these things sing. The ribbons are so transparent that no holography is needed. It would be overkill otherwise. This makes me believe that surface area is a large variable when it comes to how the ribbons behave. It makes sense since you would be getting more of a signal off the back wall when not as much is blocking the wave path. The woofers are very punchy and the more I play them the more they come alive so they must have a break in period. Although I loved the woofers in my silvers, I felt they could be muddy or overpowering when used in conjunction with tubes. Now again, i'm using RE Audio subs which were picked more for their cost and reputation. They sound good but by no means are they the final product. I'd be interested in trying other subs (probably JL's) in the future.

With the wife's help, I built the grills yesterday. There will be a square grill around the woofer and a elongated 4" wide grill to cover the ribbon. I had several different thoughts on how I wanted to make the grills but decided on this approach. If I get bored I can always make new ones. I'm going to attach them with velcro strips for easy removal.

I'll have final pics tonight once the grills are mounted. Here's a few I took yesterday.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo2-1_zps2dd8f965.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo1-1_zpsa5f5404b.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Kingman on February 25, 2013, 04:08:46 PM: Lookin Good!!! Are you using the Sunfire sub at all???
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: thuffman03 on February 25, 2013, 04:15:59 PM: Looks very nice. I will want to come over and have a listen!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 25, 2013, 05:22:53 PM: Ditto
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 25, 2013, 07:35:37 PM: Come on over, beer is in the fridge.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 25, 2013, 10:39:25 PM: The final project will be to figure out the legs.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo4_zpsfd9d54bf.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo22_zpse7a6407b.jpg)

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy313/RevAmish/photo12_zps155d1e8f.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: StephenWVU on February 26, 2013, 02:36:42 AM: Very cool!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 26, 2013, 06:24:19 AM: Rev - very nice. Do they sound good in that position? If so, all the better - they look great.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Kingman on February 26, 2013, 08:45:14 AM: Have you thought about using adjustable spike feet???
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 26, 2013, 10:48:03 AM: I'm looking at several things from spiked feet to custom feet that attach to the sides. You know me, I can't go with something simple. :laugh:

The placement of the speakers seem to be dead on. The ribbons are roughly in the same position as they were in the silvers.

Thank you everyone for your compliments.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: schwarcw on February 26, 2013, 11:11:43 PM: Greetings Rev!

Do these have a narrow sweet spot? What about the image height? If you stand up, does the "magic" go away?

Looking good for sure!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on February 27, 2013, 08:45:19 AM: Quote from: schwarcw on February 26, 2013, 11:11:43 PM
Do these have a narrow sweet spot? What about the image height? If you stand up, does the "magic" go away?

Yes, they have a narrow sweet spot and if you stand up they sound different then sitting down but that is the same with any large carver ribbon I have heard.

I added spikes last night and because of a slight slope along the back wall (french drain), I added temporary hockey pucks under the front spikes. This gives the speakers a slight backwards angle that has improved the mid/low end. I'm sure this is because the woofer is now pointed slightly upwards as compared to almost at ground level. It doesn't really effect the ribbon.

I've learned so much I really think I should build a second set but as I stated before, I'm a lazy man. I'll get around to it someday. Cosmetically there are things that annoy me but that's my OCD kicking in and i'm sure it is not noticeable to anyone else. I'm really pleased with the sound which continues to improve. I look forward to having you guys give them a listen.
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Mr. Wizard on February 27, 2013, 03:06:38 PM: are you taking them to carver fest!!
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: bearjew on February 28, 2013, 04:29:14 PM: Rev, how does the front-firing woofer compare to the regular AL-III design?
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on February 28, 2013, 09:55:04 PM: I had a chance to drop by Rev's house tonight as he offered to take my comatose plate amp back to VHF for surgery (Anders - please take a look - see if I can pick up Saturday ;D). The Mini ALIIIs rock. The bass is tight and crispy - in a different league compared to the down-firing ALIIIs in my opinion.

The design Rev chose works really well aesthetically - the pictures do not do justice to the concept. The woofer box has a small cross section but is deep - like a square bazooka framing the 8inch driver, but looks really good IMO. The slim ribbon tower maintains the low cross-section look. Very cool.

The imaging is as good or better than the Silvers. There s a clear sweet spot, but at leas IMO who cares as long as you are always in the sweet spot with a beer in hand.

Pepe
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: Reverend on March 01, 2013, 08:58:03 AM: Thanks for the compliments. ;D
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: tinpan on March 04, 2013, 11:16:23 AM: Those are very nice, I love it when plan comes togther
Title: Re: Mini ALIII's
Post by: MasterBlaster on March 04, 2013, 12:24:10 PM: Stopped by Rev's house yesterday. Very nice indeed.
Great job!