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General Banter => The Circular File => Car Talk => Topic started by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 12:50:18 PM

Title: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 12:50:18 PM
So I put Jerome in the car to do errands and it was hot so I started the engine and turned on the AC. Then Gale got in and as I was loading stuff into the back it stalled. I noticed a smell like starter fluid from the exhaust. The car has 105,000 miles on it so I expect these types of things from time to time. Old cars, first world problems. So I start it again (it's still hot in there) and went back to load in. Suddenly there was a HUGE sound like a gunshot. Smoke started pouring out of the engine compartment. I was in the garage screaming at Gale to get Jerome out of the car (I didn't know if the whole thing was about to go up in flames). Our neighbor from two doors up (a volunteer fireman) comes running down with his radio in hand because "I heard a gunshot and screaming". He is a good man.

What do you think caused this? All of the smoke was pouring out of the crack seen in the pictures. Is that (possibly) fixable or do I have to figure out how to get another car?   I'm really bummed out because I just spent a fair amount of time and some cash getting this thing inspected for another year.

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/GEDC0484_zps0efca438.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/GEDC0484_zps0efca438.jpg.html)

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d11/markshan/GEDC0483_zps173946c3.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/markshan/media/GEDC0483_zps173946c3.jpg.html)

I guess I won't be making the meeting tonight.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: papabearjew on August 17, 2013, 01:16:09 PM
Don't forget I'm a bugler if you need me to sound taps...
Hopefully it's repairable and not dead.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 01:18:00 PM
Don't forget I'm a bugler if you need me to sound taps...


 ;D
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: sk1335 on August 17, 2013, 01:20:35 PM
Should be an easy and inexpensive fix - looks like you need a new injection manifold
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 01:28:06 PM
Should be an easy and inexpensive fix - looks like you need a new injection manifold

I like easy and inexpensive.   Any chance that the explosion cracked the block?

Tom, do you have an injection manifold on either of your Windstars?
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 02:40:40 PM
Mark, is this by chance a Ford / Mercury 3.0 / 3.8?
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 03:14:42 PM
3.8L V6
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 03:16:02 PM
Ford Windstar.   I guess I didn't mention that.   Tom already sold me some parts from one he is boning out, so I guess I just assumed.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 04:11:44 PM
First, has the truck been displaying any issues as of late? A drastic change in gas mileage, idling high, a check engine light?

Ford began using those composite intake manifolds in the early 90s. The "early" runs are notorious for experiencing failure. If you decide to replace the manifold, I highly recommend purchasing a Dorman aftermarket unit as they have revised the design with greatly improved reliability.

One possibility is that the first "stall" that you experienced while running the AC was the manifold initially cracking. As a result, an influx of unmetered air could have entered the engine creating a lean condition, resulting in ignition failure and thus the "stall". When you re-started the vehicle after the crack occurred, the engine was most likely operating under a very lean condition. Typically all air that enters your engine passes through (and is metered by) the Mass Air Flow sensor located just upstream from the air filter box. The MAF sends a signal to the ECU, which determines the proper air / fuel ratio. The unmetered air that entered through the crack causing the lean condition most likely resulted in a misfire scenario in the form of a loud backfire, (combustion when an intake valve or valves were open) allowing the flame front to travel backward through the lower and upper intake manifolds. Sadly, the weak point of that intake system is the upper intake, so the backfire would have cracked the already failed manifold even further. This scenario does explain the smoke coming from under the hood as well.

If this first scenario is indeed what happened, then most likely no damage occurred to anything other than the upper intake manifold itself. On a Taurus or Sable, this is not a difficult repair, however the restricted engine compartment of the Windstar makes it a bit more of a PITA.

Another scenario, albeit less probable, is some sort of ignition timing failure. "Timing" so to speak is the harmony of the rotating mass of the engine (crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, camshafts) and the associated valvetrain components in conjunction with fuel delivery. When an engine is properly timed, the ignition process occurs slightly before the maximum excursion of a piston in a cylinder when undergoing a combustion stroke. This is phrased as "X degrees before top dead center". If you have some sort of issue that resulted in a timing error, then a backfire is certainly possible. Again, if a backfire occurs, the weak spot in the top end of your engine is the upper intake manifold, thus explaining the crack. What could cause an ignition timing failure? That depends on whether or not your Windstar is distributorless or has a distributor. What year is this thing?

It's most likely the first scenario. Chances are you'll bolt a new upper intake on and it'll fire right up, assuming proper installation.

If it is the second scenario, then you would have most likely been experiencing a poorly running engine beforehand.


Either way, you did not crack the engine block. I've never seen an engine that isn't highly modified with a "cracked" engine block.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 04:27:56 PM
No symptomatic warning at all.   Ran fine yesterday.   We did have some ignition work done a couple years ago, but nothing recent.   The check engine light is a permanent fixture on our dash.

Your post is very helpful.   Are you a mechanic?

What should I look for with gasketing the new manifold?   Do I need a torque wrench?
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 04:31:29 PM
2002 Windstar, BTW.   I see those Dormans are about a c-note.   If Tom has a good one on his parts car, can I just get a new gasket?
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 04:39:38 PM
Straight out of high school a few friends and I purchased a garage. I did that for almost 8 years until I went to college. Most of the guys now own their own shops, so I keep up on things and go turn wrenches when I'm bored, when they're behind, or when I need extra cash. I keep my ASE certifications as well.

Tell me what year the truck is and I'll send you a link to the Dorman kit. It should include all necessary gaskets (upper intake to lower intake, sometimes called a plenum gasket, throttle body gasket, idle air control valve gasket, and possibly a few other o rings and small seals.

Do you need a torque wrench? No, but, go to any Advance Auto parts and loan one. You pay a deposit, you use the tool, you return the tool and get your cash.

You can also have someone scan the vehicle before you do the repair and determine which code or codes caused the check engine light to come on to rule out the oddball ignition failure scenario. Scan tools are relatively inexpensive and simple to use. You may even have a friend who owns one.

Again, if it ran fine yesterday and days before, it is most likely upper intake manifold failure. It's a known issue and it's common, however, I've turned enough wrenches and ate enough of my own words to never tell someone that a scenario is absolute before properly diagnosing the issue.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 04:48:03 PM
It seems as if they made 2003 Windstars with and without distributors. Do you happen to know if yours is one with a distributor or is it a DIS (distributorless ignition system) model?

In all honesty, using another Ford production manifold is not a great idea. You'll most likely spend at least 1/2 the price of the Dorman manifold in gaskets from either Fel-Pro or Ford, plus the additional time you've got wrapped up into sourcing all of the individual gaskets, hoping they are the correct part, etc...

Plus, it sounds corny, but, if that manifold failure occurs while you are driving and your engine stalls, you lose steering and braking ability. Protect yourself, your passengers, and your fellow motorists by doing it right the first time and being done with it. :)
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 05:04:07 PM
Yes, I see that the gasket kit is half the cost or more.   I already figured that one out for myself.

I do have a friend with a scanner.   Doesn't the car have to be running to scan it?

It is a 2002 Windstar 3.8L V6.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 05:08:22 PM
The car doesn't need to be running to view a code as long as it stored in the ECU. If you wanted to view live data then the car would have to be running, but, scan tools that display live data feeds are very expensive and are usually only owned by professionals.

Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: OCCD on August 17, 2013, 05:19:19 PM
I have ALL the parts you need Mark.  Even another complete engine.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: OCCD on August 17, 2013, 07:35:32 PM
These have no distributors SD
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 17, 2013, 09:29:02 PM
Even another complete engine.

Good to know, but I'm hoping to not have to go that route. 8)
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: schwarcw on August 17, 2013, 10:12:01 PM
I believe the plastic cover is for the overhead camshaft.  A car will get very hot if the timing is off.  My guess is the timing belt broke because of heat or stress, and the observed symptoms of a backfire etc. are the result.   If this is the case you may have some serious problems.  Not beyond repair but not what you wanted to hear.  I hope that I am wrong.  You need to have a mechanic take a look at this.  Good luck!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 17, 2013, 10:35:30 PM
Carl, those 3.8 motors are overhead valve and have timing chains, not timing belts.

Being distributorless, it's pretty safe to assume that the engine hasn't "jumped" timing.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 18, 2013, 12:57:00 AM
I will scan for codes hopefully tomorrow and see if any are ignition related.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 18, 2013, 01:58:18 AM
In all honesty Mark, I highly doubt that the second scenario that I originally stated was the occurrence. The first scenario is much more likely. If you want to scan for codes to be safe (recommended), then by all means, please do so!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: ataudio on August 18, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Wow! Good luck. I too own said vehicle.  Its the single, biggest POS purchase
I ever made.  But, as others pointed out it shouldnt be "toooooo bad" to fix.
That plastic intake manifold cost me about $500 a couple of years ago.  I cant remember
the exact amount.  Mine didnt crack but apparently Ford used sub par O-rings that dried
up and leaked air/fuel.  They had a tech tip on in but no recall.  While you're at it
have your tech change all the spark plugs.  This is the only time you may get the
the ones against the firewall. 
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 18, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
While you're at it
have your tech change all the spark plugs.  This is the only time you may get the
the ones against the firewall.

They just did that last year. >:(
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 03:16:51 PM
Okay, we (myself and two friends) just changed the intake manifold.   That didn't go exactly smoothly as a few of the threaded pieces in the center pulled out rather than the bolts releasing cleanly.   So we reassembled with the bolts being brought up from the bottom and using washers and nuts on the top.   Since these are outside of the gasket, this seemed an acceptable work around.   We also replaced plugs and wires (actually a bigger PITA than the manifold) while we were there.

We started it up.   It ran great for about a minute, then as the idle was doing it's routine drop from 1200 to 800, it stalled.   Tried twice more.   Ran about a minute then stalled.   My friend Rick pulled of the PCV and noticed the ball wasn't rattling.   So off to the parts store to pick up a new valve and an air filter while were are at it.

Made those changes and it ran fine in the driveway.   No hesitation at all.   So after a few minutes we got in and took it for a drive.   Got to the first hill and it sputtered badly.   Then it ran fine for another minute or so and then shut off.   Started it back up, got halfway home and it shut off again.   Rick asked when was the last time I changed the fuel filter.   I told him "never".   So we did that and it didn't help either.

In all of this, we never got a check engine light (other than when all the lights come on with a stall) and there were no codes either before we started or when we finished.   Any ideas?

Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: schwarcw on August 24, 2013, 08:58:19 PM
Could be the on board computer ???

I'd take it to a good mechanic, maybe the Ford dealer.  I was hoping for an easy fix.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 24, 2013, 09:29:44 PM
I've only seen one Ford ECU go bad in a decade and a half of wrenching / slanging parts.

When you say "thread pieces in the center" - do you mean the bolts that hold the upper and lower plenum together?

First thing is first - double check all spark plug wire connections at both the coils and the plugs. Additionally, check a box and verify that the plugs given to you were correct for your year and model. Did you verify the gap on the spark plugs and adjust where necessary?

Double check all vacuum lines and wiring harnesses that you had to disconnect in the process.

Did you disconnect the battery in the process? If so, did you reset the ECU? If you did not, then I would do so by disconnecting the positive battery terminal and applying the brake for 30 seconds or so.

If you reset the ECU, re-check all vacuum lines and wiring connections and nothing is out of the ordinary, and you gapped the spark plugs installed them properly, then my next two moves are to remove and clean out the idle air control motor and the mass air flow sensor. CRC Chemical makes specific cleaners for both, available at Pep Boys or Auto Zone. You can find the procedures for doing either with a quick Google search. Careful no to damage the vane in the MAF sensor.

If you want to test your fuel pressure, Pep Boys and ( I believe) Advance or Auto Zone loan Fuel Pressure gauges. Your fuel rail has a Schrader valve that permits testing. Again, a quick Google search will be your friend for the how-to of testing fuel pressure.

Last, it's stupid to even say this, but, verify that the spark plug wires are indeed on the correct cylinders.

Keep us posted.

Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 10:07:06 PM

When you say "thread pieces in the center" - do you mean the bolts that hold the upper and lower plenum together?



Not the bolts.   They were fine and the manifold came with new ones.   The "nuts" that are actually rounded things molded into the plastic pulled out of the mid plastic manifold piece.   
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 10:09:43 PM


Last, it's stupid to even say this, but, verify that the spark plug wires are indeed on the correct cylinders.



Somebody else said this to me, but it runs perfectly for a minute or so until it stalls.   I'm certain it would not if the firing order was wrong.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 10:11:12 PM
We did disconnect the battery.   I didn't know anything about resetting an ECU.   That seems like something to try.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
Another friend said to me that the crank shaft sensor and cam shaft sensor are both known to go bad without throwing a code.   So may possibilities, I may just have the dealer diagnose.   At least we ruled a few parts out for them.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 24, 2013, 10:46:08 PM
If you know anyone who has a Snap on MODIS or anything similar, you can view live data from sensors.

Typically, if a crank or cam sensor are bad, you won't have a minute of running fine then chaos. Most of the time the car won't run at all due to the fact that cam and crank sensors perform such a critical function.

Does it run fine until it warms up, or just for the first few seconds / minute? If it runs okay until it gets close to warm operating temperature, my guess would be that it's a sensor of sorts, but most likely not the cam or crank sensor.

When the car is not fully warmed up, the ECU runs in closed loop mode. Math people and programmers are not creative when naming things. Closed loop mode is exactly that; the ECU does not read non-critical sensors, instead it uses preassigned parameters to manage the engine. For example, instead of reading manifold pressure and exhaust gas composition, predetermined values are used in place of MAP sensor and oxygen sensor readings. Closed loop operation is very "baseline" - and very safe. It ensures an air fuel ratio that is rich to prevent damaging lean conditions.

Once the vehicle approaches warm operating temperature, the ECU switches into open loop mode, where it considers input from all sensors to manage the engine in such a way that it operates with maximum efficiency given the external conditions.

Most typically, when a crankshaft sensor goes bad, the ECU has no frame of reference regarding when to ignite the air / fuel mixture in the cylinders. The crankshaft sensor is not subject to open / closed loop operation. The ECU consistently reads crank position regardless of operating mode. The same applies to the camshaft sensor.

Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 11:13:09 PM
All of this makes sense as I've always noticed that it takes about a minute for the idle to drop from about 1200 rpm to 800.   Today, it was when this drop was occurring that the engine would stall.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 24, 2013, 11:21:13 PM
If you put it in neutral and give it fuel manually, does it still stall?
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 24, 2013, 11:26:24 PM
Good question.   I was afraid of giving too much fuel and having another ginourmous backfire and manifold crack.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 24, 2013, 11:34:36 PM
Well, we may be back to isolating what caused the fuel or timing issue that led to the backfire and the cracking of the manifold.

Without being able to get live data from your sensors via the OBD port, there's really not much else I can suggest without risking replicating the backfire condition. :)
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 25, 2013, 08:39:31 AM
Yep.   That's why (unless resetting the computer as you suggested works), I think the next step is towed to the dealer.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 29, 2013, 11:21:07 AM
Okay, here is the latest.   

I did the three steps SD prescribed (clear computer, clean IACM and MAF) and started it up.   It seemed to run much better but I didn't road test it because I have to be to work in 45 minutes and didn't have time to have it shut off anywhere besides my driveway.

I observed one thing that may be a huge concern or may be nothing.   Right after I started it, I noticed that some of the "compartments" around the retaining bolts on the top of the manifold filled up with water.   Some filled, some were completely dry.   I never noticed this before but I also never looked for it.   Could this be a gasketing problem?   Is it a concern?

I'm tempted to buy a new middle manifold piece and the complete gasketing kit, but don't want to throw money after this vehicle if it may never be running again.

Opinions?   TIA.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 29, 2013, 01:49:35 PM
There's no water in your engine, right? If something were leaking, it'd be antifreeze.

It's most likely just water that ran in through the cowl panel (where your wipers are located) and accumulated on the engine.

If I were you, I'd start the van and let it run in the driveway until it reaches warm operating temperature and when I'd check for any leaks.

If you feel that the intake has a leak, you can have it tested on a smoke machine.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: schwarcw on August 29, 2013, 10:20:30 PM
SD makes a good observation, plus it rained like hell the past several days.

It's good news that it's running.  Let's hope the worst is behind you!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 30, 2013, 01:43:49 AM
I will check it before I start it and after I run it a bit tomorrow.   Definitely not anti freeze.   I always smell that stuff, even with the smallest pinhole leak.   This was definitely clear water.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on August 30, 2013, 02:50:59 AM
There is absolutely no way your engine is putting out pure water.

My guess is that your cowl trim is worn at very best. When it rains hard like it did, it probably allows some amount of water onto the engine.

Take pics next time!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 30, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
So I ran the car for about 20 minutes, got it well up to temperature.   It was running fine.   Gave it gas a few times, it dropped back down to idle smoothly.   No water appeared, I guess that had just run in from the rain.   I called a friend to see if he could pick me up in case it stopped while I was road testing it.   As I was talking to him, it shut off.   Am I still having a problem or could that happen to any car?   I will test again tomorrow.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on August 31, 2013, 01:30:15 PM
Okay, I sprayed the idle air control motor with WD40 instead of cleaner after realizing that they wanted this part to be lubed and tried again.   It idled great for probably ten minutes.   As soon as I put it under load, it shut off.

I'll have the dealer do diagnostics next week. :(
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on September 12, 2013, 12:10:24 AM
Darndest thing.   I drove the car to the dealer.   It idled down too low once and I got battery light, but it didn't shut off.   I made it the rest of the way without issue.   The dealer let it idle for five hours and it never shut off.   So he called and asked my permission to drive it home.   He drove it to Delmont and back without issue.   So I got it today and drove it for a while without issue.   Go figure.

I hope it is now up to speed, but I can't say that I feel 100% confident.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Slim-Shaddy on September 12, 2013, 12:31:58 AM
Good luck! Sounds promising...
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on September 12, 2013, 11:06:58 AM
I hope so.   I drove it again today for about a half hour with no issue.   I did so many things at once that I can't say which, if any, solved the problem, but it is running really smooth now after all that work.   I'll keep yinz posted.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on September 12, 2013, 11:31:42 AM
Never put anything other than Mass Air Flow cleaner or Contact Cleaner on the Mass Air Flow sensor vane.

That little sucker gets VERY hot, a few hundred degrees.

The vehicle has an ambient air temperature sensor that inputs the temperature of the outside air to the vehicle's computer. As air flows over the heated vane, it cools off by some amount. More flow over the vane equals more cooling. Utilizing the temperature of the vane and accounting for ambient air temperature, the computer determines the amount of air entering the engine.

The amount of fuel is then proportionally injected into the cylinders for a given throttle position.

As I explained way earlier, this process does not occur until the vehicle reaches warm operating temperature and begins to operate in open loop mode (reading live sensor data, vs. closed loop mode that operates on pre-programmed parameters).

The WD 40 probably effected it for a little while, specifically right after spraying the sensor. This explains your 10 minute shut down; the vehicle warmed up and went into open loop mode with WD 40 on the MAF vane. Most likely the WD 40 burned off at the dealership and everything was peachy afterward.

Glad it's working now!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on September 13, 2013, 12:24:48 AM
No, I used MAF cleaner on the MAF.   I also used MAF cleaner on the idle air control motor.   Then, upon further reading, I found that the motor is supposed to be lubed and a couple sites said that WD40 is as good as the dedicated chemical.   So I went back and redid the idle air control motor with the WD40.   I never used WD40 on the MAF sensor.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on September 13, 2013, 02:10:41 AM
My bad. I shouldn't have been so careless when I read your posts.

P.S. - If you ever re-lube an idle air control valve, try using the PB Blaster brand of Garage Door Lube. :)

Glad your car is working again!
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: Sir Thrift-a-Lot on September 13, 2013, 07:27:37 PM
BTW, SD, I'm not sure that I properly thanked you for your direction.   Your input was invaluable.   I really appreciate it.

Gale drove the car for another hour today.   No issues yet.
Title: Re: My car exploded
Post by: SunnyDaze on September 14, 2013, 12:26:43 AM
Hey man, I'm glad I could help.

I think you're in the clear! Good job!  ;D