Vintage HiFi Audio Forum
Repair / Help Forum => Repair / Help => Topic started by: Michael L on December 15, 2021, 04:25:39 PM
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Hi, Newbie here. I just purchased a nice Fluance turntable to replace a defective cheap Audio-Technica. Am running it through a vintage Yamaha CR 10-20 receiver that has a preamp. The turntable does not have a preamp. It works when connected to either Phono 1 or Phono 2 inputs and not through any other inputs. The problem is that compared to a cd the turntable volume, bass and overall quality sound is less than half the cd. Any thoughts for solutions are greatly appreciated. Am looking forward to hearing better vinyl, thank you.
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I trust it is properly grounded? Sometimes one input is just louder than another.
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Turntable is grounded and both phono 1 and phono 2 inputs provide same low volume.
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How much is the volume difference? Can you still advance the volume control to a level sufficient for your desired listening level? If so and things otherwise sound good, I wouldn't be concerned.
The volume difference may be a function of the cartridges output. If you have another cartridge available, I suggest trying it in order to confirm the reason for the difference.
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Welcome Michael. Not sure what your experience level is, so don't take any of these as an insult. :)
Is the Yamaha the only amp/receiver you have with a phono input? If you have another, try that one out.
What cartridge do you have installed on the Fluance? Double check the leads on the headshell are firmly attached as well as RCA cables. Did you go through setting up the Fluance? Zero the arm out, add tracking force, set antiskate, etc.
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No insult taken. I appreciate all opinions. The cartridge is an Ortofon 2M Red. I carefully did the set up by the books. The volume difference as well as bass is more than double with a cd. I'm afraid that if I forget to reset the volume lower after each vinyl usage I will blast the house with a cd. The Yamaha receiver is a real beast.
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No insult taken. I appreciate all opinions. The cartridge is an Ortofon 2M Red. I carefully did the set up by the books. The volume difference as well as bass is more than double with a cd. I'm afraid that if I forget to reset the volume lower after each vinyl usage I will blast the house with a cd. The Yamaha receiver is a real beast.
Okay, now that you say bass specifically is lacking did you double check the tonearm wires? If you have one wired correctly and the other with the polarity inverted that would do exactly what you are describing.
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The way the tone arm is pre attached there is no wiring visible. I just attached the headshell/stylus as described in setup. Only one way for connectors to connect. There would be no way to get the wiring mismatched. Just a thought: do you suppose there is a preamp in the cd player making it louder and fuller than the turntable that does not have one? And would a preamp for the turntable (despite one being in the receiver) be a solution?
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The way the tone arm is pre attached there is no wiring visible. I just attached the headshell/stylus as described in setup. Only one way for connectors to connect. There would be no way to get the wiring mismatched. Just a thought: do you suppose there is a preamp in the cd player making it louder and fuller than the turntable that does not have one? And would a preamp for the turntable (despite one being in the receiver) be a solution?
Fluance does not make a P-Mount arm to my knowledge. In the headshell (which I believe is removable on all of their models) there are four tiny wires that connect pins on the cartridge to pins on the headshell. If two of these are backwards you will get the symptoms you describe. Maybe let us know the model numbers of the table and the cart so we can be sure.
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I see you said 2M above. What's the model of the table?
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It's the RT-83
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I dug a little deeper into your concern about the difference in volume of your new turn table and learned the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge is a moving iron based design. One of the characteristics of moving iron cartridges is reduced output voltage compared to moving magnet types. Unlike moving coil designs, which typically require a step up transformer, or a pre-preamp, moving iron designs can use the moving magnet input of your receivers phono input. However, it is normal and even expected to need to advance the volume control beyond what a moving magnet cartridge requires. Soundsmith, Grado and legacy B & O cartridges, possibly among others, also used moving iron designs.
Your options to address the volume imbalance are to continue with the Ortofon and be careful to turn down the volume before switching sources, replace the cartridge with a moving magnet type, or, if your receiver has adjustments for input source volume, increase the phono input and/or reduce the high level inputs. Others on this forum may have more ideas
The Ortofon 2M Red seems to be a fine cartridge. If your rig were mine, I would simply be careful of the volume setting when switching sources and enjoy my new 'table.
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I sure appreciate the deeper digging. The Fluance replaced an entry level Audio-Technica At-LP60X that didn't have the lower volume issue. Unlike the Fluance the A-T did have a built in preamp. I've not been able to find out what type cartridge the A-T had.
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I would still double check the headshell wires. Lower input is one thing, but decreased bass output is another.
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I dug a little deeper into your concern about the difference in volume of your new turn table and learned the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge is a moving iron based design. One of the characteristics of moving iron cartridges is reduced output voltage compared to moving magnet types.
VE says 5.5 mV output. That's a volt and a half more than my 440.
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ortofon/2m-red.shtml (https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ortofon/2m-red.shtml)
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Michael-If you level match the phono volume to the CD player, do the issues remain? Or, is the bass reduced while the volume is also reduced?
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Wiring can only be seen in the headshell. Where it meets the tonearm is a sealed 4 pin connector. No other wires visible in tonearm. The wiring in the headshell has 2 points of contact each for all 4. Are you thinking that the factory assembly may be in error?
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Does your headshell look like this?
(https://blog.fluance.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2MBLUE-overview.jpg)
If so, unscrew the barrel while holding the headshell firmly. Once removed, flip it over. You should see a red, white, green, blue set of wires. Make sure each wire goes to the correct post on the cartridge and is seated firmly. Reinstall.
Also, is the tracking force set within specs of the cartridge?
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Wiring can only be seen in the headshell. Where it meets the tonearm is a sealed 4 pin connector. No other wires visible in tonearm. The wiring in the headshell has 2 points of contact each for all 4. Are you thinking that the factory assembly may be in error?
Yes, I think it is worth checking.
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OOOPs...I missed a couple posts when I replied earlier. I missed Macgeek's findings on the cart being moving iron.
You may want to consider a phono preamp. The TT plugs into the phono pre and the phono pre plugs into the AUX input. You can find some very cheap units like the Art DJ for $50 or less. However, you may want to go a little bit up the ladder and gets one that allows capacitance loading. This can also be achieved with resistors and rca plugs.
OR...you could get a set of attentuator plugs for the CD player. These will "lower the volume" of the CD player. I have not used these and cant suggest which value to get, just an option.
https://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41AG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1SGMESBOEBO3B&keywords=attenuator+rca&qid=1640034737&sprefix=attenuator+rca%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-3 (https://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41AG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1SGMESBOEBO3B&keywords=attenuator+rca&qid=1640034737&sprefix=attenuator+rca%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-3)
Now you're knee deep into the thrills of vintage and non vintage audio!
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Does your headshell look like this?
(https://blog.fluance.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2MBLUE-overview.jpg)
If so, unscrew the barrel while holding the headshell firmly. Once removed, flip it over. You should see a red, white, green, blue set of wires. Make sure each wire goes to the correct post on the cartridge and is seated firmly. Reinstall.
Also, is the tracking force set within specs of the cartridge?
Yes, same type cartridge. I'll do my best to describe the wiring sequence in it. Looking at the back of stylus, coming from the needle, top left= wht, top rt= green, bottom left= red, bottom right= blue. Now looking at where the wires go to the 4 way pin top left= white, top rt= red, bottom left= blue, bottom rt= green. This viewing the headshell as it would be attached to tonearm with needle on bottom.
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Does your headshell look like this?
(https://blog.fluance.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2MBLUE-overview.jpg)
If so, unscrew the barrel while holding the headshell firmly. Once removed, flip it over. You should see a red, white, green, blue set of wires. Make sure each wire goes to the correct post on the cartridge and is seated firmly. Reinstall.
Also, is the tracking force set within specs of the cartridge?
Yes, same type cartridge. I'll do my best to describe the wiring sequence in it. Looking at the back of stylus, coming from the needle, top left= wht, top rt= green, bottom left= red, bottom right= blue. Now looking at where the wires go to the 4 way pin top left= white, top rt= red, bottom left= blue, bottom rt= green. This viewing the headshell as it would be attached to tonearm with needle on bottom.
My Ortofon 2M blue (I'm pretty sure it's the same body) has colors painted next to the pins, so just check that to see if it's correct. As far as the headshell goes, you can see the proper wiring configuration here.
http://www (http://www) dot youtube dot com/watch?v=chUgF3PxV0w&t=130s
Sorry for having to mangle the address. That's a bug in this board. Just replace the word dot with a dot and you'll see the video.
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Let's see if this photo works...
(https://manuals.denon.com/DP400/ALL/EN/fig/Lead%20wire%20color_OBAOILhcyhkefh.png)
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Good video, thank you Sir. I'll put it to use next week when I'm home from travel. My wires match the sketch going into the 4 point pin in the tonearm but not coming from the headshell. I will call Fluance about all this next week. Thanks to all for the ideas and Merry Christmas to everybody.
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As long as they match at the headshell end the cartridge is color coded.
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Here's an update. Received this from the turntable manufacturer and as a result I've ordered a preamp. Will update after that is installed.
https://support.fluance.com/s/article/Why-isn-t-my-turntable-as-loud-as-my-CD-player
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Have fun.