Author Topic: New turntable in vintage receiver issue  (Read 1160 times)

Offline Michael L

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New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« on: December 15, 2021, 04:25:39 PM »
Hi, Newbie here. I just purchased a nice Fluance turntable to replace a defective cheap Audio-Technica. Am running it through a vintage Yamaha CR 10-20 receiver that has a preamp. The turntable does not have a preamp. It works when connected to either Phono 1 or Phono 2 inputs and not through any other inputs. The problem is that compared to a cd the turntable volume, bass and overall quality sound is less than half the cd. Any thoughts for solutions are greatly appreciated. Am looking forward to hearing better vinyl, thank you.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2021, 11:44:12 PM »
I trust it is properly grounded?   Sometimes one input is just louder than another.

Offline Michael L

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2021, 12:24:19 AM »
Turntable is grounded and both phono 1 and phono 2 inputs provide same low volume.

Offline MacGeek

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2021, 07:04:18 AM »
How much is the volume difference?  Can you still advance the volume control to a level sufficient for your desired listening level?  If so and things otherwise sound good, I wouldn't be concerned.

The volume difference may be a function of the cartridges output.  If you have another cartridge available, I suggest trying it in order to confirm the reason for the difference.
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Offline scorpio333

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2021, 04:29:31 PM »
Welcome Michael. Not sure what your experience level is, so don't take any of these as an insult.  :)

Is the Yamaha the only amp/receiver you have with a phono input? If you have another, try that one out.

What cartridge do you have installed on the Fluance? Double check the leads on the headshell are firmly attached as well as RCA cables. Did you go through setting up the Fluance? Zero the arm out, add tracking force, set antiskate, etc.


Offline Michael L

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 05:41:02 PM »
No insult taken. I appreciate all opinions. The cartridge is an Ortofon 2M Red. I carefully did the set up by the books. The volume difference as well as bass is more than double with a cd. I'm afraid that if I forget to reset the volume lower after each vinyl usage I will blast the house with a cd. The Yamaha receiver is a real beast.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2021, 01:06:27 AM »
No insult taken. I appreciate all opinions. The cartridge is an Ortofon 2M Red. I carefully did the set up by the books. The volume difference as well as bass is more than double with a cd. I'm afraid that if I forget to reset the volume lower after each vinyl usage I will blast the house with a cd. The Yamaha receiver is a real beast.

Okay, now that you say bass specifically is lacking did you double check the tonearm wires?   If you have one wired correctly and the other with the polarity inverted that would do exactly what you are describing.

Offline Michael L

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2021, 01:40:44 PM »
The way the tone arm is pre attached there is no wiring visible. I just attached the headshell/stylus as described in setup. Only one way for connectors to connect. There would be no way to get the wiring mismatched. Just a thought: do you suppose there is a preamp in the cd player making it louder and fuller than the turntable that does not have one? And would a preamp for the turntable (despite one being in the receiver) be a solution?

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2021, 11:34:05 PM »
The way the tone arm is pre attached there is no wiring visible. I just attached the headshell/stylus as described in setup. Only one way for connectors to connect. There would be no way to get the wiring mismatched. Just a thought: do you suppose there is a preamp in the cd player making it louder and fuller than the turntable that does not have one? And would a preamp for the turntable (despite one being in the receiver) be a solution?

Fluance does not make a P-Mount arm to my knowledge.   In the headshell (which I believe is removable on all of their models) there are four tiny wires that connect pins on the cartridge to pins on the headshell.   If two of these are backwards you will get the symptoms you describe.   Maybe let us know the model numbers of the table and the cart so we can be sure.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2021, 11:35:40 PM »
I see you said 2M above.   What's the model of the table?

Offline Michael L

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2021, 07:47:23 PM »
It's the RT-83

Offline MacGeek

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2021, 10:16:47 PM »
I dug a little deeper into your concern about the difference in volume of your new turn table and learned the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge is a moving iron based design.  One of the characteristics of moving iron cartridges is reduced output voltage compared to moving magnet types.  Unlike moving coil designs, which typically require a step up transformer, or a pre-preamp, moving iron designs can use the moving magnet input of your receivers phono input.  However, it is normal and even expected to need to advance the volume control beyond what a moving magnet cartridge requires.  Soundsmith, Grado and legacy B & O cartridges, possibly among others, also used moving iron designs.

Your options to address the volume imbalance are to continue with the Ortofon and be careful to turn down the volume before switching sources, replace the cartridge with a moving magnet type, or, if your receiver has adjustments for input source volume, increase the phono input and/or reduce the high level inputs.  Others on this forum may have more ideas

The Ortofon 2M Red seems to be a fine cartridge.  If your rig were mine, I would simply be careful of the volume setting when switching sources and enjoy my new 'table. 
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Offline Michael L

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2021, 12:15:19 AM »
I sure appreciate the deeper digging. The Fluance replaced an entry level Audio-Technica At-LP60X that didn't have the lower volume issue. Unlike the Fluance the A-T did have a built in preamp. I've not been able to find out what type cartridge the A-T had.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2021, 12:36:00 AM »
I would still double check the headshell wires.   Lower input is one thing, but decreased bass output is another.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: New turntable in vintage receiver issue
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2021, 12:41:30 AM »
I dug a little deeper into your concern about the difference in volume of your new turn table and learned the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge is a moving iron based design.  One of the characteristics of moving iron cartridges is reduced output voltage compared to moving magnet types. 

VE says 5.5 mV output.   That's a volt and a half more than my 440.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/ortofon/2m-red.shtml