Issue using Oppo BDP-95 DAC instead of my Denon AVR-4308 DAC

[Ajdma2za]

So here's my setup (I ended up going with an Oppo BDP-95 for those who knew I was thinking about buying a component CD Player):

If this would be better answered in a different category, let me know, thanks!

Klipsch RF-83
Klipsch RC-64
Klipsch RS-7
Klipsch RT-10D
Sunfire True Sub Mark II
Denon AVR-4308
Parasound 5250
PS3
Oppo BDP-95
Panamax Power Center


I am mainly a home theater enthusiast. Lately, I've been interested in getting better stereo sound, and I'd like to use my setup for both.

I'm using the pre-outs on my Denon to go into the Parasound, and the quality in sound has been amazing switching. I've noticed a difference.

However, I'm not noticing a different using the analog stereo output on the Oppo BDP-95  to the Denon AVR-4308. Someone on another forum suggested that my Denon maybe something converting the Analog signal to Digital on my AVR, and thus not utilizing the Sabre 32-bit DAC the Oppo is equipped with. I don't know how to turn this off on my Denon, if that's even the case.

Currently how everything is, I haven't seen much improvement in audio quality using the Oppo via analog OR digital vs using a PS3. It's almost identical. I've used Esperanza Spalding and various Pink Floyd albums as well as hip hop. I've heard no improvement. No difference.

Could this be because my speakers aren't good enough to recognize a difference? Could it be because my AVR is in fact "too good" in terms of it's processing? Is the Sabre 32-bit DAC just as good as the AL-24 Processing the Denon AVR has?

I realize I can't do stereo outputs from the Oppo directly to my Parasound. I just figured I'd enjoy analog "bliss", but so far, I haven't. I haven't noticed any difference.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I've referred to the manual for Denon and Oppo, found nothing. I've sent Denon an email, waiting for a reply. Oppo is closed, I'll call them Monday inquiring for feedback.

Even the video quality on the Oppo wasn't much better than the PS3. I noticed a little difference, but I might've been tricking myself. The Denon has it's own video processing too, so could running the Oppo through the Denon be "downgrading" the video if the HDMI settings on the Denon aren't set to pass-through (how do I change that anyway? and by changing that, I'd lose my lossless audio, right?). I would literally pay for someone in my area to do installation and show me things I don't know--but even my local home theater stores (not Best Buy--I work there, this is beyond us lol) can't seem to help. The salesman there told me a CD player is useless. I just need help!

Thanks!

[bmwr75]

The Denon will not be converting the analog out of your Oppo to digital.  Are you using the Direct or Pure Direct mode on your Denon?  This will yield the best stereo sound based on my experience with high end Denon AVRs.

Chances are the PS3 is a pretty good player and the Denon may sound no better.  Just a guess on my part though.

[Ajdma2za]

I didn't try the direct mode on the Denon, but I did on the Oppo. So no matter what, the Denon won't convert the analog signal to digital? Someone on AVS said that the higher end Denon AVR's do that, such as the 5308, and being the 4308 was a model underneath, I figured it might do that.

[SunnyDaze]

Well, I know nothing of your Denon, however, I don't suspect that anyone would engineer a system that intentionally converts from analog to digital back to analog. As the bouncer in Knocked Up put it, "That's just crazy."

I don't know how much of a difference you WOULD notice using either component or input method. If you're concerned that your speakers aren't sensitive or revealing enough to exploit any differences that may or may not be occurring, spend $60 on a used set of Grado SR-60's. Plug them into your Denon and experiment. If there's a difference, you'll notice. Then you're left with a wonderful set of cans!  

As far as the CD player being outdated, I'd agree in terms of the mainstream. Most of us are not very mainstream. I'm searching for a wire recorder. Most of us play vinyl regularly and a few of us are even cassette fanatics.

If it's something that you'll enjoy, it's timeless.

[bmwr75]

Your Parasound amp only accepts analog signals.  So if the Denon was converting the analog signal fro the Oppo to digital, how would the Parasound amp be playing at all?

[F1nut]

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but the truth isn't always pretty. The CD playback I've heard on the Oppo wasn't all that good.

That said, as long as you are using the analog connections, the CDP is using its DAC. However, that is not the end of the story. The pre amp section in your AVR is still in the signal path and, at least in part, limiting the end result. Let me put that another way, if you ran a $10k CDP thru your AVR, you are not going to hear what that $10k CDP is even close to sounding like. Another area often overlooked are the cables. Generic patch cords and speaker cables will seriously limit the sound quality.

Do you have a friend with a dedicated stereo pre-amp that would let you borrow it to compare with your AVR?

The Denon has it's own video processing too, so could running the Oppo through the Denon be "downgrading" the video if the HDMI settings on the Denon aren't set to pass-through   

That very well could be your issue with the video performance as the Oppo is top notch in that area.

The salesman there told me a CD player is useless.   

He is an idiot.

[Ajdma2za]

Truth is definitely what I want to hear. Is the NAD that is like, $799 retail better? It only has a 24-bit DAC, I think it's the 565 I'm not sure.

Should I buy a dedicated stereo pre-amp with HT pass through?

The only reason I bought the Oppo was I figured for $1000 if the CD playback with SACD, Blu-ray, Blu-ray 3D, and dual HDMI's was a steal for the price. If someone could guide me in a new direction I'd be grateful.

I'm using 10-guage speaker wire from Blue Jeans Cable, and really thick analog cables, and other cables Monster, since I get them cheap. I played around with my AVR last night for three hours, and read manuals and forums for Denon and not one instance was there a mention of turning any processor off in my AVR. I think it's impossible.

Let me know!

[SunnyDaze]

Truth is definitely what I want to hear. Is the NAD that is like, $799 retail better? It only has a 24-bit DAC, I think it's the 565 I'm not sure.

Let me know!

"Only" a 24 bit DAC is nothing to worry about. The bitrate of the conversion process should not be a significant concern. There are competent multi-bit DAC's and there are competent single bit DAC's. Some of the best CD players on Earth use a single bit DAC's. Look for something that's well built, and has a high signal to noise ratio. Typically, higher is better. Speaking of which...   *Cough*

I'm not sure what you mean by "truth". If your aim is to extract the most faithful reproduction of the source material as is humanly detectable, you'll be joining the countless others who are on that crusade. Don't be disappointed if you never quite put your fingers on the grail.

If you want the "truth" in terms of advice regarding your components, that's an entirely different ball of wax. F1nut is a much more honest fellow than myself in that capacity.  

[Turtle]

Using the Pure Direct mode on the receiver should turn off any audio or video processing that is occurring within the receiver.

[F1nut]

Ajdma2za, before anything else at this point, is there a way for you to try a 2 channel pre amp? Maybe a friend or are you close to Tom's shop?

[Ajdma2za]

The pure direct mode will turn off any processing? I think I've tried that on the PS3 plugged into the AVR via HDMI vs the Oppo plugged into the AVR via analog, and I didn't hear much difference. I'll try again.

I'm not close to Tom's Shop, I'm in NY, about 5 hours away lol. I was debating buying a Parasound 2200 Pre-Amp because I think it has HT bypass, which if I'm assuming correctly means I can connect it through the AVR and plug the Oppo's analog output into the Parasound 2200 pre-amp's inputs? Is that right?

Someone else on AVS said modern day DAC's sound good, even if it's a 24-bit vs a 32-bit, and I won't tell the difference unless I have 10,000$ plus in gear. I don't think the Oppo BDP-95 is aimed toward that price group though. From the reviews and internet chatter I've read, I figured the Oppo should be an improvement in both audio and video vs my PS3 (only true way to tell would be to compare side by side on two exact TV's I assume. I haven't noticed a night and day difference at home, plugged into my AVR or directly into my TV. I can go to Best Buy and plug them into two similar TV's, but my managers might get mad, especially if there's traffic, even if I'm off the clock.)

I would even debate buying a new pre-amp processor, any ideas of any good ones up to $1000 vs my Denon AVR-4308? I'd love to keep the Denon if I could, I guess I just "want to" hear the difference... even if it means going 100% all the way separates.

[Ajdma2za]

I could probably just bypass any and all issues with the Denon possibly doing analog to digital by having a 2-channel stereo pre-amp right? If so, Would the Parasound 2100 be good or is there something better under a $1000?

[MasterBlaster]

What do you propose will be doing the analog to digital conversion?
typically it is the other way around. CD music is digital and either your cd player or receiver converts it to analog depending on how they are connected.

[Ajdma2za]

If I use a 2-channel pre-amp (Parasound 2100) the Oppo 95 will be doing the DAC, and not *possibly* the Denon, even though the Oppo is plugged in via analog. I think somehow the Denon is either converting the analog to digital, or it's using it's DAC somehow, and the Oppo is acting as transport somehow, even though it's via analog.

I'm also looking at the Onkyo PR-SC5508, which has a 32-bit DAC inside, which, if that's the case, I may get that if I can sell my Denon for $500. Choices... lol

I have to somehow talk to Denon about the AVR and what it's doing with the DAC signal.

[F1nut]

I could probably just bypass any and all issues with the Denon possibly doing analog to digital by having a 2-channel stereo pre-amp right? If so, Would the Parasound 2100 be good or is there something better under a $1000?

Right, a 2 channel pre amp with an HT bypass would remove the Denon AVR from the equation. I'm going to suggest one of these, http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1306349222&/Vtl-2.5-linestage-remote--tube

Used should run $900 or so, but make sure it comes with the HT bypass because not all of them do. It'll smoke the Parasound because tubes rule!

  I think somehow the Denon is either converting the analog to digital, or it's using it's DAC somehow, and the Oppo is acting as transport somehow, even though it's via analog.

I don't believe that is possible.