Author Topic: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves  (Read 21132 times)

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2015, 02:00:16 PM »
But if it doesn't sound good, then it is not good.   Right?

bearjew

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2015, 03:21:41 PM »
But if it doesn't sound good, then it is not good.   Right?

correct... unless it sounds good and only lasts a year...  then it's still bad.

Anders

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2015, 07:44:11 PM »
Sometimes a good sounding cap will sound bad because it makes other problems more apparent.
When I said I reject expectation bias its because I'm fully aware of it and I don't want it to interfere with my judgement of what I'm hearing.
Years ago I was well known in the audio world for having ears and being able to hear differences when others couldn't.

Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2015, 09:02:28 PM »
So expectation bias is real.

For you it seems to be. For me, no.

I've played the same file for people twice and told them that one was done with a different dither algorithm and they would swear that the one sounded better.

In my experience, the people who most vehemently deny expectation bias end up being the ones most susceptible to it.   They are the vaccine deniers of the audio world.

I would call that deception and that you're a liar making you worthless of my time.
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Bunni

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2015, 09:10:27 PM »
Sometimes a good sounding cap will sound bad because it makes other problems more apparent.
When I said I reject expectation bias its because I'm fully aware of it and I don't want it to interfere with my judgement of what I'm hearing.
Years ago I was well known in the audio world for having ears and being able to hear differences when others couldn't.

Let me take a moment here to correct Anders last line there:  "Years ago I was well known in the audio world for having golden ears, and being able to hear differences when others couldn't."

This was true.

I like that he has ears too.  Just sayin.

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2015, 10:25:19 PM »
So expectation bias is real.

For you it seems to be. For me, no.

I've played the same file for people twice and told them that one was done with a different dither algorithm and they would swear that the one sounded better.

In my experience, the people who most vehemently deny expectation bias end up being the ones most susceptible to it.   They are the vaccine deniers of the audio world.

I would call that deception and that you're a liar making you worthless of my time.

Not a lie, per se, but an experiment.   No different than BDT or or other comparative listening experiments.   No more a lie than giving half the patients a drug and the other half a placebo.

Your reaction tells me that you would fear such a thing as it may reveal that your expectation bias is indeed real.

OldiesButGoodies

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2015, 11:17:47 PM »

I recently bought two preamps to test against each other and then keep whichever sounded better.   I ordered one of them from Audio Advisor, and while talking to the salesman and explaining what I was doing,  he strongly advised that I refrain from testing the two preamps back to back,  that each pre would need a few days connected to the cables for the cables to "settle in".  I ignored the advise - there is no logic behind it (what exactly takes 48 hours to settle?  who won the Nobel prize for discovering the cable-settling effect?).  I think that kind of thinking represents the audiophile "fringe of pseudo-scientific madness".   

On the other hand, historically I have not placed much value on cables. In fact for a while I thought fancy interconnects were useless - wire is wire,  copper is copper.   Then a couple of years ago I bought a VPI turntable from SteveWVU, and he threw in an Audioquest Jaguar RCA cable and said to me "this cable sounds horrible, see for yourself”.  I had trouble believing it,  but every time I have used that cable since I found it rolled off the highs. It could have been expectation bias,  but then I loaned the cable to Rev without describing the weakness;  he used it for a few months and also came to the conclusion that the cable “sounded bad”.  Then last week JimPittsburgh loaned me 4 interconnects claiming they sounded different/better.  At least two of those 4 distinctly improved my ability to detect instruments in a recording.  One of the two “better” cables is a cheap, long (maybe 5  feet) interconnect that Jim also can’t understand why but it sounds really good. So now I am in the camp that cables can make a difference.  Expensive cables can sound bad and inexpensive ones good,   price does not automatically guarantee anything.

The capacitor debate may be similar.  I have changed a lot of caps, and noticed huge improvements when doing so to vintage equipment,  but you would expect that,  as the caps you are replacing are old and most probably out of spec [the Paccom caps in old Carver and similar vintage equipment are particularly bad!].  My experience improving the sound of newer speakers by replacing stock caps with more expensive capacitors, however, is so-so.  I can sometimes notice a difference,  but most of the time not so much.  Could be a matter of "learning to listen",  as Anders puts it, but that rings subjective to me.  I tend to side with the Crite camp in that a cap that measures the desired capacitance and has low ESR should optimize the sound relative to what the circuit was designed to do, whether it was manufactured by Panasonic or Sonicap.  That is just my gut sense, in no way am I intending to offend those that believe otherwise (I am sure they are trusting their gut too) - just posing my point of view. Could be that there are additional measurements that need to be considered - distortion introduced by caps made one way vs another, etc. Good discussion in any case!

Offline Sir Thrift-a-Lot

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2015, 11:32:06 PM »
Good post, Pepe.

Just for the sake of clarity, I am not saying that every difference in sound is due to expectation bias.   If I thought everything sounded the same, I would have stopped with the first thing I ever bought.   I am just saying that it is one very real factor and I've seen it in action too many times to believe otherwise.

Offline papabearjew

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2015, 11:35:12 PM »
Could just simply be a communist plot to overthrow our government!

OBG: you don't keep anything long enough to break in! LOL

bmwr75

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2015, 10:02:15 AM »
Well stated Pepe.

My guess is some of the debaters in this thread have forgotten Crites comments were in the context of speaker crossover capacitors and cannot be extrapolated to caps used the various parts of an amp, preamp or sources.

bmwr75

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2015, 10:20:55 AM »
I've recapped many speakers and believe the point of diminishing returns on capacitor cost is quickly reached.  My go-to cap for crossovers is the Dayton Audio polypropylene cap (5% tolerance).  They are reasonably priced and good enough for my ears.

On the other hand, I am willing to plop down bigger bucks for some caps used in certain amp locations. For example, I paid $25 each for copper foil caps to use as coupling caps in a Pilot SA-232 amp.

http://www.angela.com/angelacopperfoilpaperinoil022uf630vdccapacitor-2.aspx

Anders

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2015, 10:09:16 AM »
I once took home the entire line of Cardas Interconnect cables (RCA) and was surprised to find that the cheapest ones sounded best.They were still expensive but I recommended them to everyone. They were the 300B. As the cables got more expensive they were thicker and the sound became thicker as if the cables were over damped. This may not be real science but this is my belief. As electrons pass through the wire it excites the wire causing small vibrations and the plastic coating on the wire acts to dampen these vibrations but not perfectly so you get different sound qualities. Just like in capacitors where the plastic material dampens resonances or vibrations.

Anders

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2015, 10:12:53 AM »
I probably shouldn't say this but it shocks me when I hear someone say there's no difference between good amp and cables and capacitors.
I've heard it many many many times and its been said over and over again in Audio magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute sound.
Are people ignoring this fact or don't they care or do they just not know ?

Offline F1nut

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2015, 08:54:05 PM »
I probably shouldn't say this but it shocks me when I hear someone say there's no difference between good amp and cables and capacitors.
I've heard it many many many times and its been said over and over again in Audio magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute sound.
Are people ignoring this fact or don't they care or do they just not know ?

It is an interesting phenomenon and one that seems to occur mostly with audio related things. One thing for sure, it's not based in any form of logic as differences are present in everything else in life.
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Anders

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Re: Crites Q&A on capacitors, burn-in, etc. ---- discuss among yourselves
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2015, 11:26:27 PM »
It's refreshing to hear you say that F1nut.